Hurt Meets Healer Podcast

Why Is Change So Darn Hard? - part 1

• Kim Capps • Season 2 • Episode 4

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Change isn’t hard because you’re weak; it’s hard because it rewires how you survive. We open up about the messy middle of recovery after sexual betrayal and infidelity, where deep ruts—neural and emotional—fight to keep things the same. Together we unpack why willpower alone fails, how dopamine trains the brain to cling to secrecy and validation, and why early sobriety can feel painfully flat compared to the highs of acting out. Naming the biology clears shame and gives us a plan.

We also draw a firm, necessary line around encouragement. Contrast changes people more than conflict, but timing is everything. Encouragement can pull a willing partner toward risk and growth only when honesty and safety are present. If blame, defensiveness, or deceit continue, the betrayed spouse is in the ICU; their job is not to inspire the person who hurt them. We lay out a simple intimacy pyramid—honesty, safety, trust, vulnerability, intimacy—that keeps recovery grounded. Expecting closeness without the base is a setup for more pain.

From there, we share five non‑negotiables that make change stick: daily recovery work, rigorous honesty that kills secrecy, trauma healing for the roots beneath behavior, building a new identity in sobriety with words and actions, and radical acceptance that your spouse may never trust you again—and recovery must stand regardless. We also talk through real-life moments where small, sincere actions soften hard soil, and when boundaries or separation are the most loving choice. We pray you’ll leave with clarity, hope anchored to practice, and next steps you can start today.

If this helped, subscribe, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find the show. Ready for support? Connect with us at www.hurtmeetshealer.com and tell us what you want us to tackle next.

Thank you for listening! For more information about us and the services we offer, visit www.hurtmeetshealer.com.

Intro & Outro music written, performed, and produced by Kim Capps.


This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or professional advice. The views expressed by the Host or any Guest(s) are strictly their own and in no way constitute legal, medical, or professional advice.
Copyright ©️ 2025, Hurt Meets Healer, LLC. All rights reserved.

SPEAKER_01:

Hi, and welcome to the HeartMeets Healer Podcast. I'm Kim Caps, your host and president of HeartMeets Healer LLC, a business tree, business plus ministry that was created to help individuals and couples are walking through the devastating impact of sexual addiction and infidelity. Thanks for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00:

Episode four.

SPEAKER_01:

Wowser. Titled Why is Change So Darn Hard? The Heart One, because we have occurred it occurred to us that it's probably going to take more than one episode to uh get our thoughts out. We're going to try to rein in our feelings. And truth be known, this is the third attempt at recording this episode.

SPEAKER_00:

Actually, it's the third round of recording this episode. We successfully recorded two other episodes.

SPEAKER_01:

We did, yes. I'm unwilling to publish those. And so uh hopefully this one will make it live. And if not, we'll go for four. What the heck? What the heck?

SPEAKER_00:

One thing we've uh I certainly have uh become greater and greater accomplished at is failing and starting again.

SPEAKER_01:

There you go.

SPEAKER_00:

And somebody once said it's not how many times you fall down that matters, it's how many times you get up.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I heard Lincoln, you know, how many times did he run for office? I mean, there's so many. I could have taught him a few things. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

About failure.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, all right, all right, all right. Okay, so John, why the heck is change so darn hard?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh you know, I and it's something that just popped out of my mouth a few minutes ago that I realized um it's hard because it matters. And it's it's hard. I mean, it's hard because it's hard. It's hard to it's hard to change course in when the ruts are really deep. And you know, we've we've experienced that in mud and snow and ice, and you know, when you get in the rut, it's really hard to get out. And the deeper the rut, the harder it is to get out.

SPEAKER_01:

Now think about this. What if the harder you try? So we've been in precarious positions and we've pulled people out of precarious positions. The harder you try, the deeper you go. As far as being stuck in the mud. So when you're stuck, and the harder you're trying by yourself, the deeper you dig yourself in.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I've I've both watched it and experienced it in getting stuck in you know, actual mud and stuff. You just keep trying the same approach. If I hit it harder and go faster and spin my wheels even harder, it'll work this time. Sure. Ultimately, you just get buried and you're stuck.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what if, I'm a big whatever. What if we ask for help? True. And if someone came along and reached down and helped us out of this pit that we dug ourselves into, right? How much easier is that? Now it has to be the right person because I've experienced where uh someone is stuck. They've had they called for help, someone came for help. They, the helper got stuck as well because they were unprepared. They thought, hey, I got, you know, four-wheel drive or whatever. We lived in Wyoming for a few years, and people, I, you know, uh, I think I will probably never understand the mind of human beings. I don't even understand my own mind. You know, I like to think and pontificate that, oh, I know this or that or whatever. Nah. Yeah, baloney. You know, it's it's experience and um thinking that, oh, I've got the tools, I can help you out, yet you're unprepared for um whatever the circumstance is that you're facing it. Maybe a whole different um dirt. We we have just this horrible caliche clay. Yeah, it is not nice. Matter of fact, it's Satan's dirt. I think this is what he puts in his garden, and that's why he just grows brown, black, all his stuff dies. It's horrible. And if you want to grow anything on our ranch, you have to amend the soil a lot. It is not, it's not, right? It's not this easy, hey, because we've been here for 20 years. We've tried, we have put so much effort and money into this flip, into these pastures. How much more the soil of our hearts and how we can harden to um changing, to allowing God to change us. Right. And I I was um, as I was contemplating this, I remember uh what didn't I I don't remember, did Jesus say it? I don't know, because I am not a biblical scholar, y'all. Just a little FYI for you. There you go. But I know in the Bible it says, take my yoke, because it is easy and light. So if God says it's easy, what in us makes it so hard?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think it's a matter of letting go, surrender. It's um as you like to say, dropping our hands.

SPEAKER_01:

Put your hands down.

SPEAKER_00:

And um I was reading an article in from Affair Recovery. And the the title is uh is called uh The True Definition of Love and Its Role in Surviving an Affair. And the article, one of the lines in the article says this Jesus taught that people change more by contrast than by conflict.

SPEAKER_01:

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think it means I I really don't know, but I think it means I'm gonna ask Brock what contrast.

SPEAKER_01:

Give me the definition of contrast. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, contrast is um I I think what it means is I'm gonna show you a different way rather than I'm gonna tell you how to do it, I'm gonna show you how to do it. And the contrast that Jesus provided was he loved people, he called them to account, you know, all these different things. But uh at its core, he loved people, that's where he started, and so he taught people that to lead with love rather than lead with conflict. And I'm not sure exactly um, you know, I I think you know, there's a leadership role there. There's the you know, there's the golden rule piece to that, right? Do unto others the way you want them to do unto you. And we don't do that. I don't mean that we as in you and me, I mean we as in the collective human race don't generally do that. Right. Um, and you and I have been in an ongoing conversation about do unto me before I do unto you, yeah, right? Yeah. And the expectation that, okay, I'm waiting for you to do it to me before I'm gonna do it to you. And that's not what Jesus said at all. He just said that people around you will know whose you are by the way that you love them. And so I I think that means that you know we can affect we can impact, not affect, but impact change in other people by creating change in ourselves.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. So I ask Grok with that speech sentence.

SPEAKER_00:

Almighty Grok.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I don't uh I am not sponsored by, we are not sponsored by Grok. I that's just who I it's it's my search engine, basically, is what it is. Um so what that phrase means, well, what it can mean, one of the things that it can mean, is human beings are usually more influenced and transformed by seeing a clear, attractive alternative contrast, than by being directly attacked, argued with, or shamed. Conflict. And that's absolutely true with you. Well, you know what? I think it's true with every everyone. I don't like being attacked, I don't like arguing, and I definitely don't like being shamed.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my goodness, sure. Yeah, conflict triggers defensiveness, contrast invites, ooh, my favorite word, curiosity, right, and aspiration. Yeah, and it um what it says in short is conflict says you are bad, wrong, stupid. Contrast says, here is what's possible.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, there you go.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh and and the the other way that that I think that plays out is it says I will show you the way.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Rather than tell you this is what you need to do. Let me tell you something about you that you don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Yeah. And it people move toward what they admire more readily than away from what they're scolded about.

SPEAKER_00:

Fear is not a motivator of change.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

Love, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we're pulled. We're pulled by beauty, we're pulled by um encouragement, we're pulled by example, being an example more than we're pushed by criticism or confrontation.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And that's where somebody reaching down and pulling us out.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know, we we went on a trip recently that had some incredible views. And we're drawn to the edge of the cliff to experience the view. Right?

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

The fear of the fall doesn't draw us to the edge of the cliff. It's the beauty that attracts us, and we're really willing to take the risk to stand on the edge of the cliff.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. We're willing to climb up that dad gum column thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, to see the view. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And it was amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's the that's the message of you know, of hope in all of this is that if we can if we can live with each other with grace and draw each other to the edge of the cliff through love rather than push each other to the edge of the cliff, right? With fear.

SPEAKER_01:

Push over the cliff.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. And and you do that for me when you say I push you over the cliff. No, you draw me, you draw me to the edge. This is this is cut three, so we're not gonna do cut one and cut two. You draw me to the edge of the cliff when you tell me how meaningful it is when I care for you. You push me to the edge when you tell me how bad I am for not caring for you.

SPEAKER_01:

Do I tell you how bad you are?

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, no. I'm saying I'm I'm contrasting those two. I'm not saying you necessarily You as a Kim. Yeah. Okay, you're just using you. You draw out of me.

SPEAKER_01:

Because I was getting a little hurt here. I'm like, wait a second.

SPEAKER_00:

You draw out of me, and remember, you know, if you think about biblical roles of how God created man and woman, you draw out of me this desire to rise up and protect and and to be there by the way that you encourage me and you tell me that I can do it. Remember what our brother just said to us about what his daughter said to him. I am successful because you believed in me. Right. And I think that's the case in, I don't think, I know that's the case in relationships. We rise up, and especially men, men are dying to be appreciated and valued and challenged and and and they're also demanding it. There is absolutely a way to go cross that line, no question. No question. If it doesn't come naturally, but our hearts, I'm I'll speak for me. My heart longs for that to say, you can do it, I'm with you. And and I believe that that's that God has created that in the heart of every man.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure.

SPEAKER_00:

And how we change then, and why change is so hard, especially in our circumstance. And if you're listening to this podcast and you're not in this circumstance, oh my gosh, why are you listening? But um, but if you're in this circumstance, there's been some really, really deep hurt, and there's a lot of pain. And it all of this just gets amplified to so such a high level of of that, and even small things have because of the amplification, even small things have huge paybacks or consequences.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Okay, I hear you. Uh, what about when uh how do you how would a betrayed wife um do that for their partner, especially if that partner continues to abuse them? Great job. Great job um dissecting what I did. Great job blaming. Great it is that I mean, how does how does this work? You gotta help me out here. Help me out. No, it it it is could you make it sound good in a in a healthy marriage? In a healthy marriage, yes, absolutely. We're not talking about healthy marriages.

SPEAKER_00:

That's true, but and but the question is no, keep keep going.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, what's the am I missing the question?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, the question is are we on are we committed to a path to have a healthy marriage?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, that being committed, I thought we were committed to having a healthy marriage 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure.

SPEAKER_01:

10 years ago. Well, five years ago. I I well, maybe six years ago, because that's when our tip of the iceberg blew up. That was our Titanic moment.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh so help me out now because I'm I'm saying that it it is it is a matter of looking for and acknowledging small moments. Okay, so and a lot and recognizing that that might be hard to find, especially early on.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, we're not early on. And what if you're married to a very proud, egotistical, non-wavering, I'm not gonna put my hands down, I'm not going to um give in, I'm not going to be open, I'm not. I mean, what speak to that? Because you make it sound, I mean, on the surface, it sounds wow, okay. If I just do this, that'll help my husband out. Um, I'm gonna just let you know I've tried this, and no, it doesn't. It doesn't work, John. Because you're unable to receive it for what it is. In our relationship, um, it my encouragement has been taken as sarcasm, it's been taken as um, she doesn't really mean it, I'm attacking, I'm I don't know. What are you having to tell me some of the thoughts you have? That's what I've received from that, the feedback has not been a positive. Oh, that's helpful.

SPEAKER_00:

And and well, and depending on what place that I am and I have been, and I absolutely recognize and confess that many times I misinterpreted what you said as some sort of you know, sideways comment when you meant it in all sincerity.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so okay, so how does that work with a person like that? Because it it I mean, I I guess I I'm just not uh understanding how you can how how how what your position, uh hang on, let me find my words. Um you you speak all these great, it sounds wonderful. It's not practical in this situation.

SPEAKER_00:

But okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Or well, let me ask you instead of telling you, how is that how do you make it practical?

SPEAKER_00:

You you recognize small victories.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I have because it's hang on.

SPEAKER_01:

You let's let's just talk about us for a second. I have. I saw you roll your eyes. Come on. This is the third freaking take. My gosh. What I've done that, and so when you rolled your eyes, the message it sent me was BS Kim. You haven't done it properly. And hang on a second. Let me, I will say the end when I'm finished speaking, okay? I will I won't end my sentence or my whatever paragraph. I have done these things before I knew what all you were involved in. I had suspicions, but I didn't know. Right. And hang on, I would attempt to encourage you. Hey, you got this. Hey, I believe in you. Yeah, I'll I'll fix your computer. Yeah, I'll get you all hooked up, and you got this. And you still betrayed me, you still blamed me. You said it didn't help.

SPEAKER_00:

And where I was at that point. Oh, sorry, you didn't say the end.

SPEAKER_01:

I did not. And even on this um rocky recovery road, ooh, triple R. I've done that. And I man, you have just slammed me in my lady balls. It has been like um squeezing water out of a stone. I have encouraged you. That's not what God says about you. You're God's kid. He's crazy in love with you. It doesn't work. Well, it doesn't work with you. It may work with someone out there, but it doesn't work with you. So I'm gonna ask you another question here. You say recognize the small things. I say thank you. Thank you for doing the dishes, thank you for doing the laundry. It doesn't change the fact that you still kick me in my ladyballs. You still hide, you still lie. So, how does this help? Please help help help me understand number one, why you can say that and what's the what's the premise behind you saying that? The end. We have to do that because we don't know when we're done talking. So bear with us, please.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's true that um through our marriage you encouraged me at various times, and I was so um broken that I was unable to receive it. In this recovery journey, the rocky recovery journey, rocky road of recovery. Um it has been it believe it or not, it has really been valuable to me, the moments that you have believed in me. And I'm not talking about saying thank you for laundry and dishes and stuff like that. I'm I'm saying the things that you say that that you may not even realize how incredibly powerful that they are when you say thank you for a really good trip, you really were different on this trip, and I really appreciated that. It it it's almost incalculable how valuable that is to draw me to the edge of the cliff. And and simple things um like a hug are breaking through barriers that you can't see. You can't see the the power of small things that are that are um hammering away at a scared hard heart. And how just the little taps of those encouragements and I know that you think well, I don't know that, I think that you probably think that your words of encouragement don't mean anything because you don't see an immediate change. We had that conversation earlier today about doing things with the expectation of change and how I had have been guilty of that. They really do if you remember, and I know that you do, trying to drive tea posts in this hard clay ground when it when it's dry, and how do we do it? We start a little hole, pour some water in it, let it sit for a while, and it softens it up. And it doesn't seem like it's working, and then all of a sudden it'll go in. And these kinds of things are what I'm talking about. Those are the things that soften a hard heart that chip away at the crust, and finally there's a breakthrough. The end.

SPEAKER_01:

I was waiting. I was waiting. So, um, sure.

SPEAKER_00:

We need to get one of those chest things.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, to ding and hit the ding with the bell.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my goodness. You know what?

SPEAKER_01:

Where's the talk? We need a talking stick here.

SPEAKER_00:

No, I'm not bringing a stick in here.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my Lanta. Okay, so that was a lot. And um, I will be unable to that's okay. Uh repeat back what I heard you say. So um it's interesting how we keep running plays of the negative in our lives and not the positive.

SPEAKER_00:

I think they say it takes what, 10 positives to not erase, but to negate or Gottman says in a conflict you need five to one. There you go. But in life, you need twenty to one.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And so um I'll Yeah, you're behind the eight ball a little bit.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure.

SPEAKER_01:

A little bit. And I'm curious. So we're talking about why change is so darn hard. And it it what I hear is wives, if you just encourage your husbands, even in the small stuff, that will just help. That will make change happen. Or it'll do something, but in the positive. That's not been my experience.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, well let's well, hang on.

SPEAKER_01:

I did not say the end, dude. Stand by.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, stand by. Stand by for clarification.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right. And I I've spoken to um, my gosh, hundreds of women in the past six years who have gone through very similar experiences as me, as us. And um they are kind, caring, loving, encouraging. It doesn't work with an addict. Whether you're addicted to porn or sex or drugs or alcohol or speeding or food or approval, it does not help when there's other underlying things going on. So other lying other underlying things might be um oh gosh, what is that? Um where you're uh you you're unable to empathize with someone. It's uh dad gummit. It was right there on the tip of my tongue. Doug Weiss says it a lot. Uh matter of fact, he wrote a book that I have over there.

SPEAKER_00:

I know you haven't said the end, but anorexia.

SPEAKER_01:

There you go. Something anorexia. What is it? Intimacy. There you go, intimacy, anorexia. So when when there's no safety, so intimacy, the first word in that. If a wife is not feeling safe, she can't, they don't have intimacy there. If the husband isn't feeling safe, there's not intimacy. Because there's a there's a hierarchy that has to happen before intimacy can take place. The first block of that is honesty. And it didn't, in our relationship, I don't know if you know this, it didn't matter if I encouraged you or not, you were not honest with me. When I encouraged you, you were not honest with me. You still lied to me. When I supported you, you were still dishonest. I was still lied to. Um, I'll just make, I'll put it on me. Which then the next step is safety. So I couldn't even feel safe. I couldn't be safe because there was no honesty. So I I hate to ask it again. Maybe I just need to go, what the what? John, where are you coming? What's the angle you're coming from to say that? So just encourage your husbands, even in the small stuff. It goes a long way. I you know, I'm I'm not on board with that.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. And that's fair. You didn't say the end, are you?

SPEAKER_01:

The end. Okay. Well, I'm not the ending, but I'll probably interrupt you too. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm gonna rewind where this comment came in, and it was about breaking out of the ruts. And and so I'm assuming some things in in this um, yes. You know what assume I do. Aww. Um I'm assuming that you're you're living with a spouse that's actually trying to break out of the ruts, that's doing the hard work, that's that's you know, coming clean and and is in that process of of recovery.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

It's messy and ugly and sloppy, and and that they've chosen to be honest, right, they're broken, they've humbled themselves, they've put their hands down.

SPEAKER_00:

They're they're and they're willing to and or or they're in the process of learning how to do all that. Because remember, the title of this episode is why is change so hard? And and changing from that person to the new person is hard. And and that's where I was, I mean, that was the the genesis of that comment was in that process of drawing, and we started talking about we changed through more by contrast than conflict. So the the foundation of all of that conversation, I simply said, as a building block in that conversation was the encouragement helps more than you can imagine.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I believe that. I believe the encouragement does help more than you can imagine. However, a wife cannot encourage an abuser. Isn't that called enabling?

SPEAKER_00:

It it depends. I mean, it if you're if you're enabling But if they're an approval addict.

SPEAKER_01:

They live for those little thank yous and ooh, you did good, ooh, you know, uh what so let's let's ask that question.

SPEAKER_00:

Um so if you're if if you say that you need approval, right? If if that's your let's just say love language, um Is that one of the languages that need approval? No, words of affirmation are definitely a love language, right?

SPEAKER_01:

But it gets out of control with as with everything, right? Especially with addicts.

SPEAKER_00:

And so my wife didn't praise me, so I went and that's the unhealthy side of things. And and I'm not saying that doesn't exist, and I'm absolutely not saying that I haven't participated in it that way. But what I am saying is if I recognize a need in you and the and and know that I can I can help you by meeting that need, then that's what I'm saying. I need to meet that need.

SPEAKER_01:

I disagree. Well, I see things differently. I have a different opinion on it.

SPEAKER_00:

Um I'm not saying blow smoke.

SPEAKER_01:

Hang on. Give me a second to to think this out, to talk it out, please. Um when you were in the height of your addiction, uh you would still um come after me, basically, sexually. When you were at the height of your affair, uh you would still I think you would even say the words I love you. Um boy. Um you would still you would help me carry the bags of concrete when I was poor and con when you would show up and help. How how would, how did, hey great job, thank you for showing up and helping me. That did not help. It the encouraging words I spoke to you didn't help. Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_00:

I wasn't on a path to change. I was determined to be who I was.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, there's a big R word in there too. You were holding on to resentment.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And so what if I have what what if I have a spouse like that? How how do I encourage someone like that? Well, um the Mm-hmm. Bring it. Here, here's we gotta wrap up this one right here, otherwise we're gonna go way long. You're uh it but yeah. Sound like me. No, I'm I'm I'm caught I'm imitating you. And so what I think the brutal, here's the brutal truth. Change feels impossible. It feels, and we think it's impossible, because the addiction was never about sex or approval. That's not what that was what was shown, that was the outward appearance of it. But it it's the primary system for regulating emotion, self-worth, and nervous system calm for years. That's what the addiction was about. And to learn sometimes for you, it was decades, decades, and our brain, it has been shown uh in the medical field that our brain literally rewires itself to see acting out as survival, and quitting feels like dying because neurologically part of you believes it is, and so the fight, our brain fights recovery because of that dopamine hit. That's what was that's what happens when a person acts out. There's a dopamine hit, and in recovery, those pathways are downregulated, and life just seems bleh, flat, boring compared to those hits that we would get. Not we, you, others. Well, you know what? There are things I do that I get a hit of dopamine, hmm. Shooting a gun. Yeah, well, I'm not no, mm-mm. We're not gonna go there. We're not gonna go there. But there's where God put that in us, and those hits secrecy, validation, those are hits of dopamine. The trauma bond of with the acting out cycle, that's high around high arousal, which then leaves to leads to shame. It's this cycle thing, which then leads to relief, and then it repeats itself. And it's this loop that just keeps going. And I have a I have a sticky note on my monitor up here. It says break the cycle. Be a cycle breaker. And it works instantly to soothe. Especially when we're not taught any other way to manage our our feelings, big, big feelings, or we're told your feelings don't matter, or don't feel that way. Right. We all want to be wanted and desired, and we all want to feel special to someone. We want one, we want to be their special person for the addict sobriety coming clean. Um, I think I mean what was hang on a second, let me just finish this sentence, then I have a question for you. Sobriety forces the addict to sit with this really terrifying question of who am I? Who am I if I'm not this um highfalutin, charming person that everyone needs and wants. Who am I? And it scares the pituchus out of us. And so we go back to that soothing, and that's that vicious cycle. So um, I should have written down that question because now it's it was a good one too. Look, well, let me yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00:

Let me drop something in here in the conversation of dopamine and you know reshaping and rewiring our brains. And and that's exactly the point that I was trying to make about it how encouragement draws us to the edge and makes us and and makes us willing to take the risk. That's the dopamine, if you will, if you will, um of relationship.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Um I would like to interject something here. You haven't risked with me. Risk. I'm a texting y'all, so I'm gonna I take shortcuts on my words. You haven't risked with me. So how are you saying this?

SPEAKER_00:

Um I'm saying, well, perhaps you don't feel or think that I have, but on my side, coming from where I come from, I have I have done lots of things that feel risky.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, maybe it's time we actually have a upfront, frank, open conversation of where you have been. So I will know. But that it uh you're looking at me like the deer in the headlights, dude. I don't well do you want me to say the end?

unknown:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

The what I'm saying is, I mean, even our conversations today I were were risky to me. They felt risky to me.

SPEAKER_01:

See, that's normal for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

That's that's stuff that should be happening in marriage.

SPEAKER_00:

I appreciate that. I really do.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you really?

SPEAKER_00:

But I it it is I mean, that's one of the many ways that we're different. You are way more emotionally advanced than I am, and by your statement that proves out that that's normal, and it felt very risky to me, it felt very vulnerable to me, and I was intentionally, I was intentional in being vulnerable, and that's a risk because it's an area that I'm afraid, but I chose to move to the edge because of your encouragement.

SPEAKER_01:

I was afraid. When I mean my family raised, we were taught, we don't talk about this. We don't talk about, you know, let it go, let it go, forgive and forget the whole. And I would uh I think I was ostracized. I was the black sheep of the family because I wanted to talk about stuff. I would call it out, I would see it and go, Well, what is this? And my and I remember my aunts. I don't know if you remember my aunts, they would just be having this and they'd be going, they'd say something like intense, and they would whisper it. Oh, and you know different. Well, she's you know, different. And then they would just go on with their conversation, like that's what I was raised under. You know, you have to keep it under wraps, you can't let it out.

SPEAKER_00:

We have a lot of that in my family as well.

SPEAKER_01:

A lot of this. And I don't know. I I would, I just chose to go. Wait a second, no. No, we're gonna talk about this. Let's talk about it. Even today, my brother and sister have a hard time talking about stuff. My sister's way better. And so does your husband. Yeah, so does my so does so does our one of our child, one of our children, one of our children is.

SPEAKER_00:

But here's here's what I want you to hear. It has been your example, you're exercising the golden rule that has begun to break through and draw that out of me. It has been that contrast, it has been those small, simple things like snuggling that allow me, that encourage me to take the risk. And you can't imagine how big that is. And because of who you are and how comfortable you are with all of that, you can't imagine likely how big of a risk that feels like on my side.

SPEAKER_01:

You're right, because uh for me, I I want to be fought for, I want to be pursued, I want um a man of courage and um action. I don't I I don't want a I don't want a husband who's timid and shy and scared all the time.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure.

SPEAKER_01:

And um you have to earn the right to snuggle, by the way, because of the extended hurt that has been inflicted on me. And I didn't inflict that pain on myself, I had to come from somewhere. I have to be able to trust. I have to um have a spouse who's honest with me before I can be safe. Honesty, safety, then trust, then vulnerability, and then intimacy. That's the intimacy pyramid, if you will. And it is um yeah, I I'm a I'm just I'm a bit shocked that that I I absolutely believe, absolutely encouragement. Yeah. I I I'm for it. I I believe it. When when a a wife is being dismissed, when a wife is continually being blamed, when when you show up defensive, how do I encourage you? Hey, great job not being defensive today. I guess I'm baffled. I'm confused, and we don't have time. We're at holy moly, almost 50 minutes. We'll continue it on the next one. I'm confused though, at how you can sit there and say this. Is that something you desire? Is that something you need from me? And this is just a way to get it, maybe.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it's something that we all need. We all need to be encouraged.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. However, I I will really, really want to emphasize I can't encourage a person who's hurting me. I can't be that encourager. That will need to come from your groups and from your counselors. That's where that comes from your accountability partners. Your wife cannot give you that encouragement that you need while you're abusing her. While there's no empathy and sympathy. It is impossible for us to do that. That's why groups are so powerful and necessary for healing. And that's where that you will get your encouragement. That's where you get your camaraderie. Because for me personally, until I am receive until I receive empathy, until I see complete ownership. Heck, I'd be happy with half ownership. Until I'm not blamed, until there's not a tit for chat. And when the defensiveness is gone. But dude, you're, I think, might maybe expecting a little much from a betrayed spouse. They are they can't give it. They're in the ICU. How do I encourage if I'm in ICU on a vent, all these tubes hooked up to me? My husband who crashed the car is walking around. How do I encourage that person? I can't even speak because I got a tube running down my throat, breathing for me. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00:

It makes sense.

SPEAKER_01:

Alright. So, well, we gotta wrap it up today. Man, we still haven't answered the question. That's okay. Because we have another part coming up. And I'm gonna leave you with a couple little tidbits. What actually makes change stick? And these are non-negotiables, y'all. There's five things daily recovery work. Daily recovery work. Y'all, groups, groups, groups, groups are so important. Counseling is so important and helpful. Rigorous and radical honesty. That's number two. Radical honesty. Secrecy is the fertilizer. Sunlight kills the addiction. Get it out in the open, y'all. Everything. Everything. What's it worth to you to keep hiding? What's that gonna bring you? And then number three, do your trauma work. Do your trauma work. You have to go back and look at early attachment wounds and trauma that happened in your life. Get some help on that. There's great, great help out there. Four, is building a new identity in sobriety. And something you can say, you can look yourself in the mirror, look yourself dead in the eye, and say, I am a man or woman of integrity. I am a man or woman of integrity. And you have to say it out loud because that's how the brain works. And uh yeah, I encourage that. Five is radical acceptance that your spouse may never trust you again. And that recovery has to happen regardless of the marriage outcome. If you're basing your recovery on what your spouse is doing, uh, you're not in recovery. It's this tit for tat thing. You have to be stay in your lane, work your own recovery regardless of what the other person's doing. If they continue to hurt you, there may be a time of separation that's necessary. So those are the five steps to uh potentially make a change stick. And so, y'all, I just want you to know you are not weak, you're not uniquely broken. Your brain is doing exactly what it was wired to do. Real change is slow, it's messy. However, it's possible. It is possible, but you have to stop trying to outrun the pain and start walking through it. You can't avoid it, you can't go well, you can attempt to. Where'd that get you, John?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, in the ditch.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So start walking through it with people who've been there. Find a mentor, find a coach, find a counselor. We have great resources. You can go to our website at hurtmeetshealer.com. Um, there's just so much help that's out there these days. This area is coming alive and is being awakened. And I am so proud of those who are out there walking through their own journey and their own recovery and also walking beside others who are just realizing, oh my gosh, I need help. And y'all, I'm proud of you. Keep working your plan and your program. You can do it. I believe in you. So until next time, y'all, God bless. Thank you for taking the time to listen today. Remember, you are more than what happened to you. We'd be honored to come alongside and guide you on your healing journey. Connect with us at www.hurtmeetshealer.com. Until next time. God bless.

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Kim Capps

Host
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John Capps

Co-host