Hurt Meets Healer Podcast

What The What? A Hard Talk About Trust

• Kim Capps • Season 2 • Episode 14

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“If you couldn’t talk, would I fall in love with your actions?” That one question exposes what trust is made of and that which betrayal destroys. We sit down for a raw, unfiltered conversation about what happens when words sound spiritual and sincere, but behavior still hides, deflects, or withdraws. If you’re walking through sexual addiction, infidelity, deception, or the aftershocks of a double life, you’ll recognize the push-pull of wanting answers while also needing safety more than explanations.

We dig into what actually fuels hiddenness and why it starts so early for so many people: shame, fear of being wrong, fear of being seen, and an identity built around not measuring up. We talk about how resentment forms when we assume instead of asking, how conflict spirals when one partner hears “attack” in a request for transparency, and why “tone” becomes a distraction from the real issue: a bruised heart that needs honesty, consistency, and ownership. We also explore what it means to love without “give to get,” and how identity and faith can reshape the choices that once felt automatic.

You’ll hear why you don’t need every “why” to heal, but you do need enough truth to live in reality, including the role of a full therapeutic disclosure in rebuilding trust. If this resonates, subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more hurting couples can find support.

Thank you for listening! For more information about us and the services we offer, visit www.hurtmeetshealer.com.

Intro & Outro music written, performed, and produced by Kim Capps.


This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or professional advice. The views expressed by the Host or any Guest(s) are strictly their own and in no way constitute legal, medical, or professional advice.
Copyright ©️ 2026, Hurt Meets Healer, LLC. All rights reserved.

Welcome And Why “What The What”

SPEAKER_01

Hi, and welcome to the Hurt Meets Healer Podcast. I'm Kim Caps, your host and president of Hurt Meets Healer LLC, a business tree, business plus ministry that was created to help individuals and couples for walking through the devastating impact of sexual addiction and infidelity. Thanks for joining me today. Hey y'all, welcome back. Welcome back to the podcast, episode 14 of our second season here, and we are asking the question. Well, I am asking the question. I can't put a wee on this because John, I don't know. You you can um later on. Hang on, I I uh didn't mute unmute you yet.

SPEAKER_04

Don't you wish you had that button in real life?

SPEAKER_01

I really well sometimes because there's a lot of times I um I want you to share and you don't yeah now it wouldn't benefit me to have a mute. Uh I need a mute, um, and yeah, mute. Not a mute, a mute. Good gravy.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to the ranch, y'all.

SPEAKER_01

All right. Now let's stay on track here or attempt to. Um, tonight I am, yes, and I'm gonna say tonight. I'm just gonna get over trying to hide when we record. We have to record after hours when things settle down around here. Um, we're gonna ask the question, what the what? And um you may see this acronym floating around WTF. Well, my my saying, my version of that is what the what, because of uh it's more like saying, What in the world? What were you thinking? Right, what the what? So this is John's opportunity to share and answer some questions that I am confronted with myself, in myself, I ask a lot of these questions and have over the years, but I also get asked um in my groups and um in my client meetings as well a lot of these questions and even more. And we'll we could get into some more as we uh work through this process. I have no idea what he is going to say tonight. So let's all be surprised together. I'm gonna start with a quote by Henry Cloud that says, This is the marks of a truly, this is one of the marks of a truly safe person. They are confrontable, and I like that because there's no, there's nothing to hide. They're open, they're honest, they're trustworthy, and there's nothing to hide, so they're confrontable. They don't mind being confronted. Oh my gosh, did I do that? Shoot, I am sorry that landed wrong with you, and my behaviors hurt you. You know, it's so anywho, do you want to say anything before we get started?

SPEAKER_04

Good evening.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh. Wow. Okay.

Actions Versus Words In Trust

SPEAKER_01

So um I'm gonna I'll be full transparency here in that I wrote these questions in um a time that I was uh well, I was angry. I I was just my brain was scrambled. I think there was some um maybe some gaslighting going on, some hiddenness, and I I just started all right typing out these questions. And the first question I'm gonna ask you, John, is if you couldn't talk, would I fall in love with your actions? You can't okay. I'd probably had this conversation.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I'd uh long pauses. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Stay with us.

SPEAKER_04

I would be uh probably in a way better shape if I couldn't talk. Was it your talking that uh I mean my actions, yeah. I usually get myself in trouble with what I say, and that that feeds from what I think. And so I I would, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'd I might be better off if I couldn't talk, but it Yeah, you wouldn't have gotten yourself into the situations that you got yourself into, would you? Exactly. But and the other thing probably is we would never have dated or gotten married.

SPEAKER_04

Right. So that would be bad, at least in my in my perspective.

SPEAKER_01

But oh, in the overall sense of um are your it's basically do your actions do does the walk match the talk? I guess is what this question is asking. If you couldn't talk, how could you prove your love for me? How could you prove that you're trustworthy? Could you I guess the question, the proper question would be, could you prove, would you be able to prove honesty, fidelity, trustworthiness, safety, transparency with your actions?

SPEAKER_04

Well I'm working on that every day. Um I my track record isn't very good in that regard at all. So I would like to say, you know, I I would hope that someday I'll be able to answer that question yes, emphatically. I don't think I can answer that emphatically yes today. But I'm I mean that is that's my hope is that the things that I do match the things that I say and that I demonstrate that on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_01

All right. I hope that that occurs as well.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

For the safety of you and those around you.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And the benefit of you, absolutely those around you. It sure does help with relationships when that uh when that occurs. All right.

The Double Life And Shame

SPEAKER_01

So typically addicts um live a double life. They're keeping a set of books that we don't know about as the spouse. And my first, my I guess my next question, not my first, my next question is what did it profit you to or what profit did you gain by living a double life?

SPEAKER_04

Oh, none. I mean That was too easy of a question.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well what was purpose, I guess.

SPEAKER_04

Well, there's there's no purpose.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, well, there were you had a purpose at the time. You had a reason.

SPEAKER_04

Sure. There there is a uh but there's there's a reason, but it's that definitely doesn't have a purpose. The the reason is um shame. I spent my life hiding from shame, in shame, from from my life.

SPEAKER_01

And from about how old?

SPEAKER_04

From as old as I can remember. And probably before that.

SPEAKER_01

Um can you give an age range?

SPEAKER_04

Six to eight, six. Yeah, I mean I don't I have very few memories before um probably six years old. Very few.

SPEAKER_02

Me too.

SPEAKER_04

And you know, like I have one memory of burning my feet after my older brother's birthday. We dug a pit in the yard and roasted hot dogs and marshmallows, and the next day, you know, my older brothers dared me to run across it barefooted, and I did, and that was April 29th, and I missed the rest of that school year, and then we moved. So I remember that. I remember it and so you know that so I developed that hiddenness early on. You know, it's interesting. The very first question that God asked in in the entire scripture is where are you? And you know, and we've been hiding ever since, and and you know, some of us have perfected that art um very well, and and I certainly did. I hid from my life, I hid from you, I hid from who I was becoming, and then I hid from who I was.

SPEAKER_01

Did you know that's what you were doing?

SPEAKER_04

No, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_01

No, so what does that I mean it's looking back and you know, okay, I hid. What does that look like? What does that even mean? Like as a as a 10-year-old, what were you ashamed of as a 10-year-old?

SPEAKER_04

Um, just being poor, being not wanted or unwanted, um, you know, being emotionally, physically abused. There was a lot of shame. And by the time I was 10, you know, they were my my parents were in the middle of of a divorce or getting close, and you know, it was just a very chaotic and in the 70s divorce wasn't um divorce had the stigma and um and so it was a shameful thing, plus the circumstances surrounding the divorce heaped shame upon shame on that. And so, you know, I I just was ashamed of my family, me.

SPEAKER_01

And you knew that as a ten-year-old?

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_04

No. Okay. It's just this it was this sense of never measuring up, of never being um in the group.

SPEAKER_01

All right.

SPEAKER_04

And so, you know, the the defense mechanism to that is either to withdraw and retreat or to try to become likable or you know, get the approval of people.

SPEAKER_01

And so what did you do?

SPEAKER_04

So I was I was the approval guy. And but at the same time, I was yeah, I was gonna say I I did both. And um, and I still, you know, have that capacity to do both, to withdraw. And, you know, that's one of the things that we encounter a lot in attempting to heal is that part of me that that wants to go hide and withdraw. And then there's the other part that wants to that really wants to please, and so it it, you know, I'm I'm I'm definitely a conundrum.

SPEAKER_01

Well, where does um just becoming a better human being come into play? Where does instead of trying to please someone where would be like um because I see no benefit in that? They people get to choose if they're gonna be pleased or not.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So why wouldn't I really working tonight asked the why question? So let me reframe. What would be a would there be a better solution? Which there, I'm gonna answer my question, yes, but and you can answer it too. Well, this and if there is a better solution, where's the block? And why aren't you beating that block to death? If where's the block of just doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do? I'm not gonna run and hide. I want to run and hide a lot. When we get in these loops and these cycles, oh my gosh, like I'm I have to we're gonna stop for I'm I cannot do this right now. I need 10 minutes, 15 minutes, which is acceptable. And then we need to pick it back up though. We can't, you can't just walk away. I can't just walk away and never never to be spoken of again. However, we get in the cycle of when that happens, we don't. It's like, hey, you get, I think the story I tell myself is, oh, he thinks he's oh, he got away with it. And then you just go on to something else. Whew, that gave me an out. I'm gonna take it, I'm gonna take this offering right here, and I'm gonna go to the QT or Bucky's, and I don't have to get back on that freeway anymore where it's a traffic jam and it's a Chautauqua show. So um boy, that was a little rabbit trail.

SPEAKER_04

Go ahead. Well, I hadn't I didn't lose the thought. Um because the answer to that, the the the solution to that is identity.

Identity Shift And Giving Without Getting

SPEAKER_04

I mean everything about the whole journey is uh is identity, it's the whole thing, right? Because on the front end of the journey, the I my identity, and and and if you're a a guy out there listening, or if you're listening for your guy, um here's here's the deal. It's all about identity. On the front end of this, my identity was buried in shame, and I was and that's who I was. I was shameful, and I acted shamefully out of shame. And the the solution and the answer that I'm really coming to wrap my arms around, my heart around, is identity, and it's who does God say that I am? I'm really working hard to please God. And and as a husband, it's it is my my duty and calling to please you.

SPEAKER_02

Now you step to it, Bucky.

SPEAKER_04

You come on, you um very appropriately stated that I can't choose if you're pleased or not. Right. Right. And so I'm I'm having to come to grips with that and recognize that my service to you is to God, and you're the recipient of that, and how you choose to perceive it is how you choose to receive it.

SPEAKER_01

And I otherwise it's give to get. Right.

SPEAKER_04

And that's not right, it's not the it's an exchange, right? And and that's not what this is about. It's about it's about loving you, serving you, giving myself to you with no expectation of anything in return. And that is frightening for me.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_04

Because I have lived the other side of that coin. I have lived in the exchange mode.

SPEAKER_01

And so I'm I'm sorry, I'm I apologize for breaking in here for a special message now. Frightening. Oh I because I am the opposite. To give to get to me is a it's bogus because I can't determine and I can't make you give back anything. So it it's a fallacy. And wouldn't it be freeing? I am free, but I'd give to give, expecting nothing in return. As a matter of fact, typically I expect, or I I have I had grown to expect chitonqua to be thrown my way. It's not good enough, it's not this, it's not that, it's not whatever. And so I'm like, you know what? I and I came to the realization, he can go pound sand. It is good enough. It's him. It's you know, it's you, it was your choices, right?

SPEAKER_04

Your decision. And and let me be clear, um, the flesh side of me, my selfishness is where that frightening comes from. So that old identity, that shame-based identity, when I when I think of just giving and not expecting anything in return, that person, that thought process is is terrifying because it it asks the question, when do I get mine?

SPEAKER_01

And so that is so selfish.

SPEAKER_04

Of course it is. That is like smokes.

SPEAKER_01

So you live in selfishness of being afraid. Hey, no, hang on. I'm gonna work it out, I'm gonna walk it out, talk it out. I'm not I'm not saying you as this it but it I am kind of saying you. So it it wow, let me get to other questions down the road.

SPEAKER_04

Let me uh let me help you unpack this. So that is the journey that I have been on. Bless your heart. Is is shifting my mindset from that old mindset to a new mindset that has my identity wrapped up in who God says I am, not how you respond to how I am trying to love you. And so that's the that's the journey.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Typically, um, this is not on the list, but I think you can answer it. Have you loved me the way have you loved me the way you wanted to be loved?

SPEAKER_04

Not the way most of the time I want to be loved. Absolutely. Most of the time.

SPEAKER_01

I turn around and there you are. I roll over and poof, you're right there. And it sounds bad.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Sorry, I'm quoting uh and and and honestly, that's part of that's part of this growth process is to really try to begin to really deliver love to you um in ways that you can receive it.

SPEAKER_01

Well, how do you know? I'm still my mind's still spinning on that selfish living in fear. Because when am I gonna get mine? Question. And wow, dude, you might get healed tonight because that was a confession on that.

SPEAKER_04

That's I don't know that I is that new information to you?

SPEAKER_01

It's non-new information to me. It's new to hear it come out of your mouth. Okay, it's very new for you to speak it.

SPEAKER_04

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01

I have most likely said it to you and accused it.

SPEAKER_00

Or let me tell you something about you that you don't know, you know, to enlighten you, to to attempt in the attempt to help you, you know, heal and be better, whatever.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that doesn't work, ladies. Please stop. Um, well, I'm gonna tell this to myself. I cannot, I am not my husband's counselor or coach or mentor. That is not my job. I am not his mommy, I am not a parent to him. I am a partner and a spouse, and I will behave as such.

SPEAKER_04

And an Ezer connecto.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Bless you.

SPEAKER_00

Bless you, y'all.

SPEAKER_01

So, all right, well, let's let's move on. We're not gonna get into probably three of these questions, maybe. So let me see.

Pride, Conflict, And Withdrawing

SPEAKER_01

Here's a good one for you. What prevented you from looking at yourself as the cause of our relationship issues?

SPEAKER_04

Fear. I didn't want to be wrong.

SPEAKER_01

What would have happened? You well, it turns out, surprise, you're wrong. You have been all these years. What's happened to you? I didn't you're not a pillar of salt.

SPEAKER_04

I can't even eat salt.

SPEAKER_02

Get that blood pressure down.

SPEAKER_04

No, it's It's um Yeah, there there was a there there was a very uh broken part of me that was unwilling to have a chest pain.

SPEAKER_01

Is it bringing chest pain? I see you rubbing your chest.

SPEAKER_04

No, that's an itch. The pain is here where the where the uh Oh where the cow kicked you. Yeah, and it's yeah. It's flared up.

SPEAKER_01

Oh the cow kicking wound. Well, just forgive that cow.

SPEAKER_04

A cow's in the freezer.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that that showed him kick me.

SPEAKER_04

I'm gonna eat you. Actually, I don't know where that one is, but I don't either.

SPEAKER_00

I can't even remember that's been so long ago.

SPEAKER_04

Probably in somebody's freezer.

SPEAKER_00

So long ago.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so what why would you not okay? So I get not wanting to be wrong. I knew most of the most of the things and most of the time, and to me it wasn't a right or wrong issue. It was a partnership communication. I thought, uh, what's the big deal? Why won't why won't you um just admit that I was right? We could have done it this way, and either saved money, not lost money, whatever it was, not ended up in the ditch.

SPEAKER_04

Normally, by the time it got to that point, it it was such a conflict.

SPEAKER_01

Why was it such a conflict? Was it the hiddenness you hadn't told me?

SPEAKER_04

Uh sometimes, but sometimes it was just the way we handled it in our in our brokenness. And I withdrew, and so it was and my pride wouldn't let me do it. I just wouldn't put my pride away. And I I would get hurt because of how the conversations went, and my um my issues with anger, and how I didn't know how to deal with conflict at all. And so I would get hurt, I would withdraw, and all from a perspective of not really understanding what was going on, that I was the one that caused the injury, you were reacting to the injury, and I was mad because you were hurt, and so I'm I'm not saying it was resentment grew, right? And I'm not saying that I was right in any of that, I'm just telling you how it played out in my mind at least.

SPEAKER_01

And it's not I say it's not a right or wrong thing.

SPEAKER_04

No, it was absolutely wrong. I was wrong in how I handled probably 95 plus percent of all of our conflict conversations, maybe a hundred.

SPEAKER_01

I'll go, I'll give you the half the halfway point, 98%.

SPEAKER_04

There there's uh there's very few instances that I can even remember when I had a healthy response in any of those exchanges. And I'm deeply, deeply sorry for that.

SPEAKER_01

It it oh you're gonna pay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, oh well, here's the here's the here's the I don't know how here's the crafty thing. We are we are and have paid, yeah, and paid and paid, and I think we've paid enough, and I want it to stop. And so I'm I'm uh I am working on making changes so that it stops.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, hang on, let's make sure we're on the same page. So what stops?

SPEAKER_04

My um screwed up handling or not handling or mishandling of conversations, of information, of transparency, uh, all of the things that have hurt you over the years.

SPEAKER_01

You know, there's a podcast out there that where a couple talks about certain things. I think on one of those there's an ask. She talks about asking, like, you know, to gain understanding. Asking invites connection and invites communication. Being a donkey hole, you can be an

Resentment, Assumptions, And Asking

SPEAKER_01

ask hole, and that pushes away. So um, I want to speak a little bit about this resentment part because that is a huge uh a huge deal in the shame um part of this cycle. And um I heard a definition today that resentment is the internally unknowledged and unexpressed indignation of a perceived perceived poor or unjust treatment that festers because it's not acknowledged. Well, and what I say is it's a lie. You believe a lie, I believe a lie, whoever is forming this resentment, a lie based on a perceived injustice that occurred. And instead of asking, did you mean to say that? That hurt me. Did you mean to say it like that? Did you mean to say those words? That didn't land right. How about would you mind saying it a different way? And instead of doing that, resentment builds up because we think we've been wronged. And I don't know if there's just this desire to be right all the time or to not be wronged. Well, it's not that we're right or wrong, but to be um treated fairly.

SPEAKER_04

Correct.

SPEAKER_01

Which is, I mean, that's everybody has a different different definition of it.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So what may be fair to you would not be fair to me, and what would be fair to me may not be fair to you.

SPEAKER_04

What would be just to me would not and the and the point of all that is um the injustice or hurt is you know, perception is reality. And here's the here's the issue. Is it well my perception becomes my reality if you don't question it? And that was exactly where I was headed. And that's you took a breath. My breath is not your invitation. I have to breathe. But but that's the that is the whole point, and that's where I went so so incredibly wrong, is things happened I interpreted and most of the time misinterpreted, and I never sought clarity, and that was the whole fear and shame side of me that was less than.

SPEAKER_01

So, what was the benefit then of not gaining, not asking to gain understanding? Where and why what's what was I yeah, I'm trying to ask this. This is not one of my written-down questions. Well, let me help you.

SPEAKER_04

You made assumptions instead of asking. What was the thought process behind not gaining understanding?

SPEAKER_01

Sure. Don't put words in my mouth. Well, Buster Bridges.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, the thing is, it was it was I was afraid of the answer because I oftentimes thought that I didn't know where I stood with you.

SPEAKER_01

And so Yet you'd never asked.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

You're telling yourself all this BS.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

No wonder you're still shoveling the Chatanqua.

SPEAKER_04

So there's your heart. There's a lot of bless your heart. There's a lot of uh me to overcome.

SPEAKER_01

I'm wondering if there's not a lot of resentment to overcome that is blocking all I mean, all the lies I think of 37 years. How many lies could a person tell himself?

SPEAKER_04

A lot.

SPEAKER_01

Thousands, hundreds of thousands. How many days is that?

SPEAKER_04

But the the uh calculator. The I have worked hard on letting go of the resentment through forgiveness, through understanding God's grace to me, understanding my identity, understanding how wrong I had so many of those things.

SPEAKER_01

Did you have resentments building before we got married?

SPEAKER_04

I don't I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01

You didn't resent me for um pushing the wedding back a year? No. So you couldn't get more money in the Navy.

SPEAKER_04

No, no, I had no resentment over that. I mean, I wanted it to be sooner, but I wasn't mad about it or upset about it or all righty.

SPEAKER_01

Boy, that could be a big long road we could go down on resentment. Yeah. What what would what would have been the downside to questioning the statements and the lies you were telling yourself? What would have been the downside to that and go, wait a second, I'm gonna believe the best. You say this a lot to me because you but I think from how you say it to me that you think that I don't believe the best in you. And um, I'm just gonna tell you that's not correct. I believe the truth about you, and I believe who God says you are. Where I get um upset is you don't meet that. You're not living in who God says you are, and that's upsetting to me. Valid, by the way, valid upsetness. Because I know who you can be, I see the potential in you, and you're just poo-pooing it away. Like at the poo-poo factory in downtown, Maypearl. You're just floating. When you have all this potential, you could have helped so many people along the way. You're a great speaker, you can articulate, you can and you just chitangle it away because of lies you believed about yourself, which then you flipped all that, internalized it. Here I am, dad gum being your coach, counselor, baby bearer. You threw it on me and blamed me. Instead of going, well, balls, I'm messed up. I better find somebody who can help me untangle this nasty web that I have put into place.

SPEAKER_04

But you have to get to a point where you can recognize that you're messed up.

SPEAKER_01

Well, dude, I told you.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that didn't help.

SPEAKER_01

Because I just You watched me go to counseling.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Many times over. You went once and then told me walking out, if you want to go back, you can go back. I'm not going back. That was like a knife to my heart. Like this marriage is not gonna we we won't survive. And lo and behold, I would say we didn't survive. That may be the day the marriage died, not not your affair, not all the bull crap stuff. I think that might have been the day, if I really think about it, that if for me. Because that told me that that gave me the message that you weren't in it. You weren't willing to do whatever it took. That's been 25, 26, 27 years ago.

SPEAKER_04

Thirty.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, sure. You want to correct me? No, I'm just gonna jump across this desk. I'm thinking I'm not sure. Where's a stick? Wasn't that a few?

SPEAKER_04

You need to play a flute where's my flute, play a little, play a little bit too.

SPEAKER_01

Calm things down. A situation where a rousing tune of hot cross buns hasn't settled it down.

SPEAKER_04

No, I think it was we were in our seventh year of marriage, I think, when when that happened.

SPEAKER_01

I was in Wyoming. Right. We were already in Wyoming at seven years.

SPEAKER_04

I think so.

SPEAKER_01

89, yeah, yeah. I thought it was around like 97-ish. Because we were in some, yeah, we were in turbulent times then. And yeah. Sure enough. Sure enough. And well, I mean, there's so high and stuff. You were doing stuff, you were not asking your, I mean, it was just, oh my gosh. Ugga, ugga, ugga. I didn't know what to do. I had two small kids. And I didn't know either.

SPEAKER_02

Correct! That's why I got help. Golly, Moses.

SPEAKER_04

I was unwilling um to receive that help.

SPEAKER_01

So wow. Oh my Lanta. Well, we are, you know, we're trucking right along with this.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, darn, we're out of time.

SPEAKER_01

No, I'm gonna ask one more question. Um, and it is gonna be this question right here. What a lot of times when I have, oh, by the way, I'm looking at my calculator here. 37 years is 13,505 days, not including the leap years. So you add some leap years in there, you're probably at I don't know, five ten. 13,510. I don't know how many leap years. 37 years.

SPEAKER_04

Nine of them.

SPEAKER_01

Nine times four?

SPEAKER_04

It's thirty-six.

SPEAKER_01

There you go. So thirty-six and five is forty-one, thirteen, five, forty-one. There's not nine and thirty-seven.

SPEAKER_04

Nine leap years. Oh, nine. Nine extra days for the leap.

SPEAKER_01

Why am I multiplying times four? Oh, because it's every four years. And this is why I don't do math. Now, if you need a good IP address or something like that, I can do IP addresses, but IP, I'm not saying P addresses. IP is an internet protocol. That's where my job has been for the last 21 years now. 20, no, 20.

SPEAKER_04

And mine's mine's been numbers.

SPEAKER_01

So there you go. Anyways, it's over 13,500 days.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

That's probably at least how many resentments you've had against me.

SPEAKER_04

Nah. It's only a maybe 10,000. 15 or 20 of them. They just recycle.

unknown

Fifteen or twenty.

SPEAKER_01

Same song, second burst. Exactly. A bit louder and a whole lot worse.

SPEAKER_04

There's not new information. Not new information. Right. It just re- you know, it just happens again.

SPEAKER_01

Gotcha. Okay.

Transparency Feels Like Attack

SPEAKER_01

So here's the last question because we are closing in.

SPEAKER_04

That's right. Final answer.

SPEAKER_01

What informs you that I'm attacking you when I ask for transparency, honesty, safety, etc.

SPEAKER_04

Well, when nothing when you ask. It's it's the uh it's the manner. I get defensive when I think that you're coming at me. I get defense and I had written something about um about the difference in response to being called up as opposed to being called out.

SPEAKER_01

And all right, so here's what I would like for you to do. I'm gonna pause right there. I'm pause you. And because um I am hearing some blame come my way. Now, maybe that's on me, and maybe that's me hearing it. I'm open and willing to admit that because I I I've been blamed way too much in this whole situation. And what I would like to hear is ownership, not um, you did this, so I did that. And I'm really working to listen and not um not think that you're attacking me. However, the historical experiences that live inside of me tell me that this is blame. Make sense?

SPEAKER_04

Sure, I hear you. Okay, not blame. Um will will you I have a hard time and am learning and working hard to um to respond in healthy ways to conversations that are to me feel like conflict. And so I recognize that everybody has a different version of that. My tolerance for um things is different than yours. The and so what I'm really working hard to to wrap my head around and more importantly, my heart around is how do I respond to really the cry of your heart rather than the tone of your voice? And man, I have so gotten that wrong so much that I I read things into your tone, I hear things in your tone, and and that um it's not an excuse and certainly not blame. It is my mishandling of the conversation rather than asking.

SPEAKER_01

That's been your statement all along. Well, it's your tone. If you just ask it, dude, I'm I'm gonna bring up some history here. I have asked kindly. I I have asked in a kind tone. I have it doesn't work. Doesn't matter what tone I use. It doesn't.

SPEAKER_04

It's and and I'm you still I'm saying again show up.

SPEAKER_01

I'm looking up my Rosetta Stone to see if they've added that dumbass thing in there so I can speak to you in a language you will understand. The it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_04

Right. I understand that my issue is my own issue. It's not your issue. My issue is and it goes back to what I said earlier about loving you in and not expecting anything in return and understanding and and you're expecting a good tone. R right.

SPEAKER_00

In the middle of I mean contradictory. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

There's a there's a in I'm fighting this bruise on the heel of my hand, and you have this massive bruise on your heart, and this stupid little spot on my hand is hurting like crazy every time I nudge it.

SPEAKER_01

Well five of me.

SPEAKER_04

Right. I can understand and and Learn to be understanding of the pain that is in your heart that gets rubbed against, and I have sucked at that, and that I'm really working hard to do better at that, but I will tell you, confess to you that I've sucked at that, and that's a part of my journey that I'm really working to improve in hearing your heart, not anything else, but just hearing your heart and being patient with the process to hear it.

SPEAKER_01

So when I gently ask for transparency, for it's honesty and transparency first, those have to come first because safety is next, and then trust happens after those first three things are in place, and trust is a long way out there right now because safety is still a long way out there. I don't know where honesty and transparency are. I'm waiting for them to even show up to the game and to play. There's remember the definition. Transparency is you tell me ahead of me finding out something. Hey, I got an email on this, just keeping you in the loop. Hey, this happened here. I just want you to be aware in case you got wind of it. Here's here's what happened. That is still not occurring. By the way, I'm not gonna give you an example on the air. I have a very fresh example within the past 24 hours that I can give to you. And here my tone is I don't know, it's not harsh. I'm just talking. And I don't know where if my if it's my tone that informs you I'm attacking you when I ask for these things, demonstrate a tone that would be acceptable to you, please.

SPEAKER_04

Your your tone is fine.

SPEAKER_01

Uh you led with my tone, is what has informed you over the years. When my tone has been um anger or and yeah, anger and valid anger because I was being lied to. Valid anger because transparency was not happening. I was finding things out behind the scenes. And then having to confront you instead of you being a confessor and being transparent and saying I have sinned from very early on. Very, very early on, on our wedding night of all times. So I don't know how, John, to um talk to you. I'm not your mom, so I'm not gonna coddle you. And if I'm angry, you will hear an angry tone. I don't know how to help you with that. That's your counselor's genre, not mine. Valid anger is valid. Do you think Jesus, let me ask you this. When Jesus was ripping those dudes anew and in the temple, you think he was sing songing them?

SPEAKER_00

Guys, you're messing up my glory's my dad's house. I'm gonna toss these tables over.

SPEAKER_01

So he wouldn't hurt their feelings. You know why he went to the cross, why they killed him? He went voluntarily.

unknown

They didn't like his tone.

SPEAKER_02

He told him off. He corrected him in the synagogue. They got their feelings hurt. Imagine that.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm not even close to being even near the Lord. I mean, I am near to him. He's in my heart, he lives in me, but not I don't behave like him. Well, I want to. Good Lord, I'm shoving both feet in my mouth tonight. Holy smokins. But it's a yeah, that still baffles me. Still baffles me. It's the tone. It's the tone. No. Okay. If that's what you want to stand on, have at it. Well, it's it's yeah. It's your brokenness which you said from an early age. Here's what is the here's what angers me is that you have it took you, you're sixty years old now. As of December. It took you to sixty years. Sixty years. Sixty years. And you still point at my tone. Sixty years. I'm gonna give you the last word, John, because we are running out of time here.

SPEAKER_04

I don't have a last word on that. Um, I mean, I recognize that is the that is a thing that that really um I struggle with. I confess that, and it's something that I'm working on. It it's not something I'm proud of, but I do recognize that that is a uh character flaw in me, that rather than gain understanding and go toward you in those moments, I um have a tendency to withdraw and believe that I'm being attacked. And I'm working on overcoming that, and that I'm learning to tell myself the truth, believe the best, and recognize that you're uh you're coming from a a place of deep pain that I caused, and learn to have grace and and patience with that, and I suck at it.

SPEAKER_01

Do unto others. Yeah, that is a verse that has not been demonstrated by you.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

You wanted you wanted me to not have a tone, you wanted me to go easy on, you wanted me to do all these things, change that you weren't willing. That was one of my questions out there. How did it help to hold me to standards that you didn't have for yourself? And you know, I'm I'm working through my resentments because I resent you for that. I'll admit it, I confess it. And I'm you still do that, by the way.

SPEAKER_04

And I'm sorry about that. I apologize for doing that.

SPEAKER_01

Sorry, stops.

SPEAKER_04

Well, and uh I I have uh really worked hard to let those uh expectations go.

SPEAKER_01

I've worked hard to let those expectations go. They must be on a string, like a fishing pole, because you reel them back in very often. Very often. So, yeah. Did it help you to hold me to standards you didn't have for yourself? You didn't hold yourself to the same standards you were holding me to? No, of course not. Very harmful. What um how could you do that? How could you tell me I'm all this stuff, I'm broken, I'm not good enough, I need to go see doctors, I need to go see a counselor, I need to get fixed, I need to whatever. Yeah. There was not even another wrong with you. You were just fine. You were the well-adjusted as my grandma used to say, my Mima, I'm the most well-adjusted person I know.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. So many things I got wrong.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that hurts.

SPEAKER_04

I and I'm sad about that. I'm sad that it caused so much pain for you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you didn't stop. You can be sad all you want. Maybe I should add to that. Sad stops. No, sorry, stops. Sorry, stops, guys. We could, oh my lord, this could go on forever and ever. Amen. We've got 37 years, 38, however many. We've only been married 37, not even yet, in May.

SPEAKER_04

And we're sorry, so that we're gonna stop this episode.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and you know, here's what's funny. The next episode is break the cycle.

Why Full Answers Are Not Required

SPEAKER_00

Amen. Oh my god. Bring it on. Gosh, we yeah, we need help there, is what we're working through it.

SPEAKER_01

Just just a quick reminder, y'all. We are we are not uh we don't have it all together. In case you hadn't figured that out, yeah, and nor do we claim to. We don't have all the answers. We're living our lives, um, working the best we can to um not turn our feelings into felonies. And uh we're sharing that with you live and in person. I'm not editing out anything, and um it's just we're just being authentic, I hope. And I hope and pray that somewhere along the way you can find a nugget that will help you in your healing journey. And for the betrayed spouses, y'all, we can ask all the good questions we want. The our spouses who have um inflicted innumerous harm. Is that all right? Did I say that correctly? Sometimes I use words inappropriately.

SPEAKER_04

It's close enough. Close enough. Yeah, innumerous harms.

SPEAKER_01

Oh Lord, see, this is what I've had to live with. Y'all welcome to my world.

SPEAKER_04

The question.

SPEAKER_01

And then I get on him because I asked him to correct me, and he did. I didn't ask you to correct me. Yeah, I did. Yes, I did.

SPEAKER_00

So, and there you go. Break the cycle. Next time, episode 15 will be break the cycle. Then why did you come print it? Right. Oh my gosh, welcome to our crazy life.

SPEAKER_01

And this healing journey, y'all, it is hard, it is a rocky road. We are doing the best we can, and we try to make it interesting. Well, geez the lord, we don't have to try. We uh yeah, we live it interestingly. We there's no try. No try, we just do or die. Yeah, so um, if you stay with us this long, bless your hearts. Thank you. We appreciate it, and I just sure hope that again, there's some nugget that you can pull out of it that God can use to heal a part in you that is still hurting. Um, we will never get all the answers. That is a a piece that I have had to come to hard, hard, hard acceptance on. Um, because I like to ask a lot of questions. I am a curious individual, and I have had to come to that difficult place knowing that I won't get all the answers to my questions, especially the whys. Especially what the what? What were you thinking? Well, I I can, you know, I can get the gist of it. And for me, right now, where I am, I'm okay with that. Because I don't here, here's here's the point that I've come to. I don't have to have all the answers to heal. I have to have certain answers, and that's what a disclosure is for if you are new and walking through this betrayal journey. A full therapeutic disclosure with guides who will help you, trained professionals, is necessary. You can't forgive what you don't know has happened, and you cannot work on reconciliation if your spouse is not gonna come clean with what has happened. There's there will be no trust, period. And that's been our journey is that the hiddenness has put a block in our reconciliation, and it is it's it blocks safety. And guys, the best thing you can do for yourself, and when I say guys, I'm talking to the unfaithful spouse. The best thing you can do is be honest, be honest with yourself and be honest with your spouse. Will it hurt them? Yes, absolutely. You cannot afford to finish out this life in dishonesty, it will kill you. It's proven out physiologically, it will kill you. And so I just beg of you, please get honest. Get honest with yourself, get honest with God. God can't heal what is not confessed. God won't heal what is not confessed, and God won't heal what's not broken. And if you do not tell him, God, I'm broken, and I need healing, guess what? He's like the dad of the prodigal son, he's waiting. But that son, that boy had to come to his senses. How long was he in that pig pen before he went, oh my gosh, I'm eating the husks of ah, how long enough to get really, really hungry? And he had already gotten hungry enough to eat that. So it's been it's been a minute. Unbelievable. But he did it. He came to his senses. God didn't chase him down,

Disclosure, Honesty, And Closing Encouragement

SPEAKER_01

he stood there waiting. Now, here's what he did. When that boy, when he saw the boy, he kept watching, he didn't go pick the dude up out of the mud. That young man had to pick himself up out of that pig pen and begin the trek to the father. And the minute, guys and gals, that you do that, God runs to meet you. That's a promise. He allows us to get to the end of our rope. He's not a beggar. He's a king. And if you're his child, you're a son of the king of kings. If you're his daughter, you're the daughter of the king of kings. Y'all, let's behave like it. And I'm saying that to me. I want to behave as the daughter of the king of heaven and earth. Y'all, thanks for joining us tonight. I hope that um you're encouraged and that from our boo-boos and mistakes and failings that um you can learn and not repeat our what we've had to go through in the length of time, because it doesn't have to take as long as we've taken, we're just on the short bus. And we, you know, we didn't get the cliff note, so we're taking the long journey. So, anywho, y'all, thanks for being here. And until next time, God bless. Thank you for taking the time to listen today. Remember, you are more than what happened to you. We'd be honored to come alongside and guide you on your healing journey. Connect with us at www.hurtmeetshealer.com. Until next time. God bless.

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Kim Capps

Host
Head Shot

John Capps

Co-host