Break The Cycle

The fastest way to stay stuck after infidelity is to keep having the same fight with new words. We name the brutal loop that so many couples live in after sexual betrayal: poor communication, misunderstandings, mistrust, and then another round of pain that feels impossible to calm down.

We walk through a six-step recovery roadmap drawn from Gottman research, emotionally focused therapy, and betrayal recovery frameworks: commit to the process, create immediate safety, process the betrayal, rebuild communication skills, attune emotionally to rebuild trust, and reconnect into a new kind of relationship. Along the way, we share what we got wrong, why “self-guided talks” can retraumatize, and what “radical honesty” looks like in real life through transparency, accountability, and consistent behavior over time.

We also talk about the importance of the right kind of help: trauma-informed counseling for betrayal trauma, CSAT-level support for sexual addiction recovery, and safe groups that keep you from walking this road alone. If you’re dealing with hypervigilance, stonewalling, defensiveness, or that constant feeling that nothing is safe, this conversation offers language, structure, and hope without pretending it’s quick or easy.

If this helps, subscribe, share it with someone who needs a steady next step, and leave a review so more hurting couples can find support. What part of the cycle are you trying to break first?

Thank you for listening! For more information about us and the services we offer, visit www.hurtmeetshealer.com.

Intro & Outro music written, performed, and produced by Kim Capps.

This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or professional advice. The views expressed by the Host or any Guest(s) are strictly their own and in no way constitute legal, medical, or professional advice.
Copyright ©️ 2026, Hurt Meets Healer, LLC. All rights reserved.

Transcript

Welcome And Why This Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hi, and welcome to the Heart Meets Healer Podcast. I'm Kim Caps, your host and president of Heart Meets Healer LLC, a business tree, business plus ministry that was created to help individuals and couples are walking through the devastating impact of sexual addiction and infidelity. Thanks for joining me today. Welcome back. Episode 15 of season two. Break the cycle is the title for this episode. Breaking the cycle of poor communication, misunderstandings, and mistrust after sexual betrayal. What is up over there, John? Just out of reach.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Just out of reach. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

It's all good.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Grinding through tax season.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Bless your heart. I appreciate you. I just want you to know that. Because it it your grind keeps my life um the way that not the way that I want it to be necessarily, but it allows me to do things like um top golf during the week. So I appreciate that. And it's allowed me to mostly retire from my IT business.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

So we are incredibly blessed.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yes. Got a great team up there and uh very appreciative of their hard work. So all right. So let's talk about it. Break the cycle. Um, do you have anything to say before we just you just want to just dive into it?

SPEAKER_00 1:58

No, I'm I'm tired of talking about it. I want to do it.

Choosing Change When It Feels Wrong

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Well, it uh from what I understand, it it it's a conscious decision, it's a deliberate choice.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

It's a daily multiple, multiple times daily choice and decision to engage in um unfamiliar and at times uncomfortable behaviors to that are healthy that don't feel healthy because they're unfamiliar and and uh unnatural, you know, things I haven't done before or done well before.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

And so what if you fake them? Is that would be would that be in the category of not done well?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Yeah, to faked it.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

I didn't because I'm like a lot of these things, it seemed yeah, I I observed, I've I've I've observed you doing some of these things, maybe not with me, but with others. Like I watched, um I watched you listen to people to really get to know them, and I would ask you, what what was that all about? Like you would um you would ask their name, what do they like to do? We would sit at a table at these banquets and stuff, wouldn't know a soul, and you just strike up a conversation with any and everybody and just asking them questions, getting to know them. Fascinating. But you didn't do that with me.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

I made way too many assumptions.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

All right, we're not gonna go down that rabbit trail on this episode. All right, so breaking the cycle anyway, give us, yeah, give about 20 minutes. We'll be down some rabbit trail. Pretty much guaranteed. Oh yeah, yo. So it is possible to break this horrendous cycle that uh we are on at the moment, and it's it seems like a unicycle because I can't ride a unicycle myself. I can ride a bicycle pretty darn good, but I cannot ride a unicycle. It's possible. We can break the cycle of poor communication, of misunderstandings, of mistrust after sexual betrayal. Uh, however, uh, it has to be deliberate. It must be deliberate, it must be structured, and it typically takes, and we're on the long, we're on the long version, but typically one to two years. And the reason it can take that short of an amount of time is if both partners are in it fully. If only one is in, it's it won't work. It'll drag out. If one is it has deeper issues, um yeah, the one to two year plan, not gonna work. Not gonna work. And I remember you saying at the beginning of all this, we're gonna do this in 18 months. What were you thinking when you said that?

SPEAKER_00 5:28

I was hoping.

unknown 5:29

I wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Were you hoping, or were you thinking, because you can do it, Kim, in 18 months. I'm not gonna do a damn thing. I'm gonna sit back and watch you do it all. That's not what I was thinking, but um I didn't recognize the last seven years tell me a totally different story. But okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

I didn't recognize my level of brokenness.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

You wanna exactly. I was the one that was broken.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

So if Kim, if you I didn't I just didn't give, I didn't all that. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Down the rabbit trail. Dang it, John.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

We're you asked. I know it.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

I'm there, you're all blaming. Break the cycle, John. Break the cycle.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

I'm trying to give you a direct, honest answer to your question.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Direct honest answer.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

That is a break. That's a cycle break.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Oh, this is hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

And the direct honest answer is I did not grasp how deeply hurt we both were, and how well, especially you, and how deeply broken I was. I I had no clue at that point. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

And it has taken a long time of staring into the abyss to figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

The abyss. You stare at yourself. Are you the abyss? Like what's in the abyss?

SPEAKER_00 7:01

There's the the fire and brimstone. Blackness of my own heart, the abyss.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Okay. Well, I didn't know. I didn't know if you were standing on the edge, ready to jump, or I don't know. I don't know what your abyss is if you do not define it for me. Thank you. There you go. Appreciate that. Break the cycle, dead. I'm gonna break something. No. Um, all right.

Repair Over Blame Takes Two

SPEAKER_01 7:28

So here's the the real kicker, and this is a lot of Gottman's uh research and stuff that's in here. Success hinges on both people. Both people. I'm gonna say that one more time. That's a big yawn over there, John. Success hinges on both people choosing repair over blame. That's huge. And professional guidance is almost always essential because the trauma of betrayal, it man, it it hurts our heads, it hurts our brains, it activates, it activated my brain's threat system. Probably activated your brain's threat system. And um, we definitely had trouble. Well, my gosh, if you listen to our podcast, you will know we still have trouble making calm dialogue.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

So without the help of our professionals in our lives, and believe it or not, this is calm compared to when the marks are not on.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

We do better, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

I disagree. Okay, you may do better because I don't know. I actually have proof on because it's being recorded. So maybe you're actually watching your P's and Q's. I am the same. Here, there, and everywhere. Yes. Now, no, I will say I I drop some cuss words in when the mics are off, sure. But pretty much, I've gotten upset with you here. I've I mean so maybe it's you. Oh, maybe it's you.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

It usually is.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

You're the one that acts different because the microphone is. I'm questioning. Maybe I said maybe it's you.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

I like the format, but it is definitely real.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

I don't know. Maybe. Because now I'm now I'm questioning the whole the whole thing. Like, do I need to start recording again? At one point I was recording our conversations because it he was just, oh my gosh. So frustrating. Yeah, I didn't say that. Oh, yeah, you did. Here you go. Boop boop poop. And I'd have to play it back. Here it is. I'd have camera, I'd have whatever. And then I'm learning so now I wonder.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

I'm learning how to be more measured in what I say rather than just pop off.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Okay, good for you. That's nice. I appreciate that. However, I do wonder if the mics being on cause you to behave differently than when it's just us. Because you know with the mics on, you have to speak. When we're just talking, like in the car, you can go quiet for minutes, and you do for hours. And when I pull into the garage, and the minute I set that car in the park, boom, you're gone. You can't do that here. You're, you know, you're tied on with the headphones, and that's right. The door shut. You make a big racket trying to make an exit. So, hmm. Wow, that's something we can explore. Hmm. Well, let's see. What anyways, let's continue on. We need to, gosh, they're probably screaming, break the cycle. Dad dummit. So it takes both. We didn't have that.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

We didn't, um, both of us did not choose repair over blame. But especially you. And we did not seek professional guidance, I think, in time soon enough. We did not get the proper help. Um, and I regret that. I have regrets. I regort, I absolutely am sad that number one, I didn't realize I didn't know. I just didn't know what was going on. I didn't know betrayal trauma.

Get Trauma Informed Help Early

SPEAKER_01 12:04

I had no idea until I started reading some books. And I I'm sad that I didn't find a safe place, a safe counselor at the onset. Um we went to your safe place. And that was not necessarily safe for me. It didn't help me. And where you were, it didn't help you either. That person did not help. Are they a great person? Yeah, absolutely. But it that was not for us. So that's one um aspect is you have to get professional help. Professional meaning someone who is trauma-informed and specifically betrayal trauma. That is so important to um getting proper help to not experiencing secondary abuse and secondary betrayal because of the counselor or pastor, even, um, unless they are trained in um sexual addiction, unless they're trained in betrayal trauma. Oh my goodness. I highly, highly, highly recommend that you avoid those types of people and find find a CSAT, find um someone who's absets trained, find somebody who's trauma trained, um, who's a mentor who's walked this course, who's gone through um professional training, has certifications in um coaching, in mentoring, especially specifically um sexual betrayal. So that's just my two cents. What do you think about that? John.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

I um yeah, I mean, good help is critical. And I don't know if we want to open the can of regrets on this, but man, I have a lot of them on how I approached everything and just yeah. But finding good help is is critical.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah. Well, and under in in that, it you know, you have number the first step is commit to the process,

Step One Commit To The Process

SPEAKER_01 14:42

right? So uh this roadmap that we're hopefully going to get through tonight, it's oh well, six points, uh is it's taken from Gottman's um trust revival method from EFT, which is emotionally focused therapy, and other some other clinical uh frameworks based on they base their research on betrayal recovery. And the cycle is this poor communication, which leads to misunderstandings, which leads to mistrust, which leads to more poor communication, and it's just this vicious cycle. And at some point, I remember um Sue Johnson, Dr. Sue Johnson, saying someone has to step off the carousel, someone has to break that cycle. And I remember for me, what I chose to do is just um mostly, most of the time, stop telling you something about you that you didn't know and expecting you to go, oh gosh dang, Kim, you were so right. I confess that I'm a butthole and I behave like a total jerk. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to see the error of my ways. Because that never, ever, ever, ever happened. And I'm gonna probably go on the record. I will go on the record and say it never will. So I dropped my hands and I began to realize that I had no control over your responses, over your actions. You're gonna do what you're gonna do no matter what. And so what was my what did I get to do? What what were my choices? Well, my choices are my choices, and so I get to choose the first thing is what I want to allow in my life, and who I want to allow in my life, and what what are the reasonable things I will accept? And what are the different levels of responsibility that are it will take to be a person who um I want to connect with. Those are all my choices, and I get to choose how I respond. I can either react to something, and I do fairly often, or I can respond, and I do that fairly often. I'm getting better. So for me, um, I'll be quite honest with you. I I was committed to the process at the beginning. I thought, uh, and I think I said this a couple episodes ago. I thought that, okay, now that we know what the problem is, and everything was out in the open, and it was not. We can work, we we can we can do this, we're side by side, we're gonna work this thing together, we're gonna do this. Oh my gosh, naivety, naivety, kim, kim, kim. Good gravy. I was wrong. I was so very, very, very wrong. Um, and so as the months, weeks, months, years went on, um, I began to um pivot a little, not a little bit. I pivoted to, you know what, I'm just gonna stay, we're just gonna stay together for now. This is not gonna be a um, yeah, this is just gonna be a marriage of convenience for me for the time being. We'll see what happens. If he gets serious about doing his work, uh, you know, I'll re-evaluate. So it takes both to be uh committed to heal, not just one. And if one is is ambivalent, if one is standing on their ground of not wanting to be wrong, oh I said that like with a tone. Do you feel offended at that? Okay, I just want to make sure. Because I heard it come out, oh shoot.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Um I reck, I mean, I recognize that's me.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Okay, uh I yeah, I'm really working to stop that stuff. That is not helpful nor beneficial or healthy. And it also um it also requires getting that immediate help, someone who's trained, a therapist trained in infidelity. Um, and it ever we each have to do our own track and our own healing journey, and then there's healing that's done together. And um, this is highly important because here's where we, I think, shot ourselves in the foot, right? Is this self-guided, oh, we can read all the books, we can do this, right? Self-guided talks usually re-traumatize and escalate the cycle. And absolutely true. That's what happened with us. Yeah, a thousand percent.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

And had we, and we did have a therapist, a really, really good one, for a while, and he did create safety. I I felt safe with him. Um I wish I would have taken him up on the disclosure and polygraph at that time, because that would have been early, early on. And he did teach us tools, however, we didn't practice them.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Right. So yeah, and we yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

No, it was, I mean, it was I'm I'm agreeing with you. It it was um it was a failure on my part as most of it has been, but to follow through on a lot of that and and stick with it.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Well, did you think that um they were the the our counselor was blaming you and you were gonna be wrong even though the betrayal is wrong.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

So no, I never I didn't take that from him. Not

Step Two Create Immediate Safety

SPEAKER_00 21:41

at all.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Yeah, he was really good. Really, really good. Um, so all right, commit to the process, get professional help first. That's number one. Number two So all of these are very important to create immediate safety and Interrupt the reactive cycle. Aren't we get an F on that one too? I mean, the first the first few weeks and months, it is triage city. Um, my my first profession was respiratory therapist, and I spent a lot of time in the emergency room. Gosh, I was so young. And now I know because I worked with therapists, RTs that were my age now. And I get, I wouldn't want to be in the ER. That's hard physical work. It's, I mean, they're like, no, Kim, we're assigning you to ER and um ICU, you know, cardiac, whatever. And I'm you sit there and watch me do a lot of things sometimes in the hospital when you come up and see me. It's hard. It's it's hard work. And that is what this is creating immediate safety and interrupting the reactive cycle is about stopping the death by a thousand cuts through arguments, accusations, um, the hypervigilance. Oh my gosh, I was off the hook on hypervigilance. I could give a class, I think I scored A. I installed cameras everywhere. Maybe not the bathrooms, everywhere though. If I could put a camera, I was putting a camera. And it was for me, I was I felt so unsafe because the the lying that was oh my gosh, just it was just like diarrhea of the mouth for you. It was so easy to come out. The lie looking me in the eyes and just straight up lying. That freaked my brain out quite a bit, and so um, yeah, there was no safety. Number two was yeah, we failed. F you want to speak anything to that?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

No, I I mean I really don't, but but the the truth of it is um it was brutal.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Well, let me I mean I just I want to ask you, does it does it benefit to do the way that you have done this?

SPEAKER_00 24:24

No, no, no, no, God no.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Um so when I when I would ask for daily check-ins, heck, even a weekly check-in. Um it still hasn't happened. What how how does that what's your thought process on um just things like that? I would request a separation, some time away. I would request now you did, you slept on the couch for a while, you slept in the bedroom down there for a while. Um, I went, I slept in the She-Shack, you slept in the RV for a while. We we were apart a lot during those years. And um yet you you continue to um yeah keep me in an unsafe place. So I had to find you didn't keep me in an unsafe place, you were an unsafe person, and so I had to create safe tea for myself, healthy boundaries, um, making requests, not being here when you got home, trying, you know, I was scrambling like crazy to not interact with you because I couldn't trust what you were saying, what the truth was, um not realizing how effed up you really were. I thought you were better than you were because that's what you pontificated and you know came across. Yet you became the most unsafe person for me, the most unhealthy individual in my life. And that was hard to wrap my head around. That broke my heart, that was sad. The person that I thought I could go to and share, not knowing you were taking that information and using it against me. Oh, yeah, yay. So F on number one for us. F on number two. So we didn't commit to the process and get professional help first. And we didn't create immediate safety and interrupt the reactive cycle. So, number three,

Step Three Process The Betrayal

SPEAKER_01 27:03

process the betrayal. We didn't do that well either. No, I would say we effed on that one as well, because this is where trust building begins, right? Through accountability rather than through defensiveness. Uh yeah, that did not happen. It was vice versa. A lot of defensiveness, zero accountability. And this is typically when a full disclosure happens. Um, the betrayed or the betrayer, the unfaithful spouse, begins to express genuine remorse. And they show it through their behaviors, their actions, their consistent, consistent, provable behavior over time, consistent apologies that acknowledge the pain caused. And see, you're just now doing that. Just now, all these years later, you can stand there and throw your hands up for, but I can't see that.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

I yeah, I agree. I mean, uh definitely an F.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

But my choice is not to stay there.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Uh I applaud that, and I hope you don't. This is also the step where the betrayed partner is allowed to express anger and grief and questions without the unfaithful partner becoming defensive or retaliatory. In other words, putting on your listening ears, doing that whole reflective listening, repeating back what you heard. And, you know, you want to replace secrecy and gaslighting with radical honesty. And you've heard me say that over and over again. I need radical honesty. Radical honesty. And it's a hard phase. We effed it big time. We are not doing good on this one, and that's why we have yet to break the cycle. Doot do do. All right, so number four is rebuild communication skills to prevent misunderstandings. Well, okay, so before we get to this one, because I think we're kind of maybe possibly in this stage right now. Have we gone through one, two, and three at any point in this journey, in your opinion? I'm gonna play some background music while you think about it.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Completed? No. But do I think we're in the process of those? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Well, we're both getting professional help.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

We're not getting help together, which I would, you know, I think is But you wanted to do that first on.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

And it and I couldn't do that, and we did. Uh there was still the blame game going on.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Yeah, and I mean it was not a safe place for me. Right. And it's not, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Um they're still not safety. Create immediate safety and interrupt of interrupt the reactive cycle. That has yet to fully take hold.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah. Yeah, working through that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

I don't know that we fully process the betrayal. We've done three disclosures now, two of them um professionally led, one with a polygraph. Why are you looking at me like that? One you said you want me to remind you of which ones they are?

unknown 31:00

No.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Okay, you know which ones they are. Okay. Just you look, you're looking at me like, what the what? That question we asked the last episode. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 31:14

I mean, yeah, my my definition of processing the betrayal is is finding the meaning.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Um I I don't really know, but process the betrayal. So why would you go off of your definition and not off of mine?

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Well, I don't know what the definition is. I don't see a definition, but my understanding of as far as the got a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

This is where trust rebuilding, trust building begins through accountability rather than defensiveness. Replace secrecy and gaslighting with radical honesty. The betrayed partner is allowed to express anger, grief, and ask questions without the unfaithful partner becoming defensive or retaliatory. Reflective listening is practiced here. You express the uh unfaithful spouse expresses genuine remorse through actions, consistent, which I would say consistent, provable behavior over time, consistent apologies that acknowledge specific pain caused, plus ongoing transparency. Man, I know this hurts. This would be an example of I know this hurts. But here's my calendar for today. Here's where I'm gonna be. Reach out to me if you need to call me, text me. I will stop. It doesn't matter what I'm doing, I will stop in the middle of that and take your call or and I will step out. If you text me, nothing is more important than you. That has yet to happen. And when I start processing, holy balls, it's as if I'm shooting a 50 caliber gun at you. Well, maybe not, because that would blow you out. That would just you'd be dead. So maybe a BB gun. A uh an automatic ping, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. And it's I'm just wailing golf balls at you. Pick one. That's what it that's my experience. We haven't, yeah. I would say nah. So how in the world are we gonna get to number four?

SPEAKER_00 33:37

I think we're in process on all of these um at various stages. You know, some more successful than others.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Oh, I highly recommend y'all don't do our process.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

We have sucked it out. Fail, fail, fail, fail. Four, four F's, four out of six. Hey, you know what? We're on a streak, though. We're on a streak. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

We're consistent.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Now that um, yeah, on the suck cycle.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Consistently bad.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah, we're consistent filling our bucket of suck up. So number four is rebuild communication skills to prevent misunderstandings. No, that's a big no, I guess. Yeah, poor communication. The fuel for the old cycle. And it's learning learning skills.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Well, and it's also dropping assumptions and thinking that I know what you're thinking.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

You've never known what I'm thinking, yeah, or what I mean. Well, I know what you mean. I've gotten it right a bunch of times, and you're shocked.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Sometimes you do get it

Step Four Rebuild Communication Skills

SPEAKER_00 34:49

right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yes, I do. Hey, even a blind dog gets a nut every once in a while. For sure. Well, and changing changing vocabulary, so changing um the way we speak, which I started a long time ago. You're just now catching up and beginning, because it would scramble your brain when I would use a new term or a new way to speak. What I want, here's here's what I heard you say. That gave me the message of this, and what I want is to understand what you meant by this, because I that that hurt, and I feel I'm I'm feeling a little bit angry and uh frustrated, and good gravy, just mentioned feelings. You were like, I'm dying. You're like the um, I'm kind of leery to admit this, but I watch uh a bunch of Instagram pet pet videos, dogs especially, where the owner's going, who chewed this up, who chewed this up, and the dog's looking away and giving them the side eye and cowering and or running away. That is exactly the the image that I get when I ask you for clarity, when I ask for transparency, not in a who chewed this up way, but legitimate, serious ask. I get the I saw one dog just fall over, so yeah. I mean, there's this is the stage and the the part where those daily check-ins, what you know, what was the hardest part of you asking questions, an open-ended question, yes or no questions. Like you asked me a question the other day that was a yes or no question, and I answered with a yes or a no, and then you got upset because I answered the question and didn't elaborate, but you ask a yes or no question, and you didn't reframe, you didn't change, you didn't, you just got upset. So this is where asking open-ended questions, like, how are you feeling about us right now? Now, here's I will um put a little warning out there for you. Don't ask a question you're uh you may not be ready to hear the answer to. I have learned that the hard way, y'all. You want to get on the struggle bus, I'll be by, I run my route at six in the morning, and uh I can I can swing by your place. Please don't don't get on the struggle bus with me. Um, but this is where you become curious, and this is more for the um unfaithful spouse to be doing. The uh it's the unfaithful responsibility to take responsibility and stop defending themselves, to build appreciation instead of contempt, and to stop this whole um shutting down thing. So it's their responsibility to ask the questions. What was the hardest part of your day? How are you feeling about us right now? And then listen to gain understanding, not to give an answer or rebuttal or to correct their words that they legitimately ask to be, yeah. That was the last one, and then um I know they speak uh Gottman speaks a lot to the State of the Union, um, to discuss needs and and what's you know, what's triggering you right now, what's um, how are we progressing? Where do you think we are right now? And not to be used as an ambush, but as honest information gathering so that we will know. And this is also step number four is where the unfaithful partner practice empathy, and I think that might have been the hardest thing for you to begin to experience giving, and that's empathy. And when here's what I learned recently when a person cannot give empathy, there's resentment in the way. There's shame and resentment. Those two, by the way, go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

So, and you know, just learning, learning how to speak to your spouse. I can see why you would feel unsafe when I'm late getting home from work. I appreciate you telling me that. And, you know, I'm gonna work on um, would it help? We'll work on getting home on time. Would it help if I called you on my way home and we just chatted while I'm driving home? Would that help? You know, things like that. Wow, you talk about gaining points. Bing, bing, bing. That's like a hundred points right there. And for us as the betrayed, you know how much I like points. I'm telling you, boy, you like points more than relationships. Shush. The betrayed partner at this stage then uh begins practicing being vulnerable, being vulnerable instead of attacking. Now, this did not work out well for me. So um, yeah, I I don't uh yeah. When I uh began to be vulnerable, it it was always an attack. I wasn't attacking him, I was just I'll talk to you. I wasn't attacking you, John. I was telling you how I felt, and it was interpreted as an attack. And so I was in a lose-lose situation. I was unable to be vulnerable because defensiveness would come out. Um that's this is learning the antidotes to Gottman's four horsemen, horsemen, which is criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. You did ace all that. You get, but we have effed all of these other ones. Okay, that's a big phase right there, big stage in that number four, because it's a it's a uh that's probably I would say that might be the longest. Well, I don't know. Yeah, everyone's different, every couple's different. Um I tell you, I am jealous of those who can do this out of the gate. Very jealous, and I applaud you. Um man, if no one's told you I'm proud of you, do and do it. If you can do it, do it. We're effing it all to pieces. Yeah, all right. We only have two more points here. So

Steps Five And Six Trust And Intimacy

SPEAKER_01 42:56

number five. Number five is attune emotionally and rebuild trust. And I know there's some acronym to attune. Um, I just didn't write it down on this one. Um, this is where the you're kind of gaining some traction. The relationship is stabilized, the you're moved out of ICU into, you know, moved up to the floor where now you're not so critical. Um, it it the conversations shift from what you did to me to what happened to us, and you begin to explore the root causes together. You know, the disconnection, unmet needs, perceptions, resentments, uh, poor boundaries. Like I've told you actually specifically what I resented you for. You have not said that. That to me. I resented you for this, this, this, this, and this. I just had that thought. So um, and it's without excuse and without excusing the betrayal. You you can explore these things um without defensiveness. You begin to share deeper, um, deeper heart issues, like your fears, your dreams, insecurities, vulnerability happens from both sides, and that creates the antidote to mistrust, y'all. It's crazy. And then again, back to consistent provable behavior over time, builds that trust bucket. Promises kept. You show up on time, you say what you do, what you say you're gonna do. Um, you offer reassurance without being asked, you notice when a bad day's going on, and you just say, You know, I see that you're struggling today. Is there anything I can do for you? Um expressing gratitude. And you're the big grand gesture guy. You're like the big grand gestures that make it all go, well, in your mind, make it all go away. There's nothing that will do that. It's small, approvable, consistent actions over time. That is how trust is built because that those actions, um transparency is observed, honesty's observed, safety's restored, and then trust can be there. Anything to say about step number five? We effed on that one too. Yeah, boy, we're effers.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Holy smokes. All right, and the last step, y'all, number six, is reconnect intimately and build a new relationship. And intimacy is not, does not equal sex, by the way. Intimacy is an emotional connection into me, see. That means that I can trust that you are safe with my desires, my fears, my boundaries, that you will protect me, you'll protect my heart, my mind, my spirituality, and you'll protect me physically. And we can have open and honest conversations about all that. Um this is where you create that in marriage 2.0, if you will. You create new rituals, you have date nights again. Um, you begin to do things you like to do together. We like to go play top golf, we like to do puzzles. I don't know of anything else we like to do together at the moment. Oh, we like to travel. I like to travel. Um so you create new um activities that you can do together, and that that um those activities create uh safety. They can if if you're uh not doing it like we do it or have done it in the past. And so, and then you can develop a joint vision. What what do we want this 2.0 marriage to look like? What does this it can actually turn into a stronger relationship, even? And it can become a catalyst for growth. You're just sitting over there looking at me.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

Um I agree. If if I if I heard something I disagreed with, I'd say so. But I mean it it is the it's it's you know, it's frustrating to look at how badly I've botched my journey on on this stuff. But it is encouraging to remember that the steps are the steps, and they work if you apply them consistently.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

Right. Well, you might be interested to know we are not the only people on the long, on the short bus taking the long way home, a long way through.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

I'm aware there's other wearing dudes out there.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

So my hope, and and uh you can speak to your own hope, John. My hope is that our journey, and knowing that we effed this whole process, yet we're still trudging through it. It is not a perfect roadmap, y'all. And everyone's situation is different. No one has lived John's life, no one has lived my life, no one's lived your life, only you have, only I've lived my life, and so it's gonna be different. And my recommendation is to not go, oh, okay, we have to do one, and then we have to do two, and then we have to do three. Oh my gosh, we've effed all six of them. And we're somewhere between one and four on most days. I really think we're not too five and six. We might be touching into five a little bit. Um well, maybe you are, maybe we're throwing them all in. And see, that's us doing things our way, which uh, I'd look back and you know what? I you don't know what, so let me tell you a little something about me. Yeah. Um, it's it's a it's a journey, and we get to to determine our journey.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Right. Every and every single day there's a choice, or most days multiple choices that we can make to affect it.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

I like the word opportunity because we get an opportunity. God shows up every day. A lot of times we miss him in the moment because we don't seize the opportunity and take the time, number one, first off, to I've begun reciting the Lord's Prayer. And for the longest time, I could not say, forgive me of my sins as I forgive those who sin against me. For many years, I couldn't say that. But today I can. I can say that because I forgive those who've sinned against me. And the list, there's somebody's gonna sin against me tomorrow, y'all. Guess what? It'll probably be John. Maybe not, though.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

There's a high probability.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

There's time, you know, there's been a day or three here and there that it we get through there. And so it's it's the uh releasing the justice, releasing this. Um we have to do it this way, or we're um wrong, John. Oh my gosh. I just realized we haven't done this properly. Does that realize do you realize that makes us wrong?

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_00 52:29

Well, I feel pretty remorseful.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

But not shame. You're not going to a shame spot because you're okay to be wrong now. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Just making sure. I'm learning. Um, I'm learning that um I'm never ever gonna be right all the time.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Holy smoking Joes. I need to put a pin in that one so I can play that on repeat.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Well, I'll I'll tell you this way. I'm proud of you. I spent most of today um correcting my own errors in six years worth of tax returns that I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

They weren't our tax returns, were they? No. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

We don't have six years worth of tax returns to do.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

Okay, good. But oh, you're this is somebody fresh. Okay. Oh, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

And then went and had to go back and cross them all. Right. And and here and there I kept finding, you know, something that I missed or something that I could have done better. And so I spent the better part of today correcting a bunch of my own errors. And I'm okay with it. I'm not mad at myself, I'm not in shame. It just, you know, I'm I corrected the errors and now they're all correct.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

And you're confident that they're all correct? Like, did you double check or did you just went through them once?

SPEAKER_00 54:06

That was my third check through.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

Oh my gosh, dude, I am so proud of you.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

And it was like handwritten, you know, crossing.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

How many years have you done this? Well since the beginning, but but you never translate that into relationship. No. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

That's that's all about feelings.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

Feelings scare me.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

They used to they still are uncomfortable and unfamiliar, but they don't scare me anymore.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

Good deal.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

So I'm learning how to be comfortable in the unfamiliar. And it, you know, and it does look awkward, I know. Um, or at least I'm sure it looks awkward from the other side, from your side.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

Oh, it looks like one of the a brand new calf trying to stand up. And we watch them like, oh my gosh, look. Oh, boom, it's down.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

And then it's like, oh, look as well. Oh, and then it's down. Yeah. Yep. And they pick their little head up. You're like, come on, mama, lick that baby hard. Come on, get and then we're cheering, come on, baby, get up, get up. Yeah, that's what it looks like.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

From my from my the view from here.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

And I'll give you a little tip. It feels like that on this side. It feels that uncomfortable and awkward.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Oh man, that's gotta suck. That's gotta suck.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

It sucks less every every time I do it.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Cool, because you get stronger. Just like the calves.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

Just like the calves. Well, there's a couple of last little tools here that I'll leave you with.

Self Care Grace And Forgiveness

SPEAKER_01 55:56

And um, one thing that's been really important to me is self-care. And I tell you, I uh neglected myself for a very, very, very long time, decades. And when I realized that it was okay to care for myself, to uh get a real counselor and pay the money, irregardless of what Mr. Caps over here says, and it was, and he was okay with that, but to um let go of of the money to get the right help, um, journaling, joining groups. I've been in several different groups, and um man, that has been probably one of the top things for me is being able to focus on me and less on John. I think I may have said it here before is not I have I've learned to stop giving, stop allowing rent-free space in my mind to those who have not earned that space. And so, and part of that has been um getting out, chatting with people. A lot of it back in the day was I just worked my butt off at my job, and I would be out and you know, in public and talking with people and climbing in attics and whatnot. But nowadays, now that I'm mostly retired um and pivoting to coaching and um other things, my grandchild, my grandchildren's, yay! I am learning that uh taking care of me is so beneficial. I have to put my like the we've been on a lot of flights. We get to travel quite a bit, and I have stopped listening because we fly so much, I don't even listen to the thing anymore. We're we're already watching something, or there's a game on that we're trying to catch, you know, get the score on or whatever. And so I just don't even pay attention. Like, when are we pushing away? Oh, they're still doing the little chitty chat chat up there. So it they tell you from my recollection, because I haven't listened in a while. We were just on a flight, they tell you um that you have to put your mask on first. Should the oxygen mask deploy, put yours on first and then help anyone around you. And that is so true, and especially in betrayal. You I couldn't be helpful. Matter of fact, I was destructive to those around me until I begin to care for myself, until I begin to find uh those and surround myself with those who would bring a healing word, who would bring validation, who would bring safety, because John was not doing that for me. And so that's what I did. And um, it helps immensely. And the next thing is to remember that healing is not linear, y'all. It is like being on a roller coaster, it is up and down inside, and oh my Atlanta. We rode a roller coaster in uh at Disney World last year, and it it wasn't up and down, just up and down. It turned you sideways, it uh it did all sorts of weird things, and um that's like this journey. That's just like the healing journey. You never know which side which way.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

Yeah, and the and the other the other similarity is it was all in the dark, or most of it was in the dark.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

Yeah, there were some flashes of it wasn't Space Mountain either. It was I can't remember Guardians of the Galaxy, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Guardians of the Galaxy.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

And it and it highly recommended if your heart can take it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

It feels a lot like this journey because it's so in the dark. We went backwards at one point, and you don't know um where the next turn is, and all of a sudden you thought you were going up and then you're going down, you thought you were going forward, now you're going back, and and it's all in the dark, right? And it's like you you know, uh, it's all you can do to hold on and lose your lunch.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

Yeah. Because I was at the point of 10 more seconds, and it was somebody either it was gonna be blown back in my face or it was gonna hit you, or it's gonna hit the people behind or in front of us. I don't because I didn't know which way we were going.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Unfortunately, I can see pretty well in the dark, so I had some clues at some times what what was coming, but for the most part, I mean it it is very similar to but you weren't just facing forward, right? Yeah, very similar, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

Yeah, it's not linear, and bad days are gonna happen. Y'all, that's just part of the process. So, my uh my recommendation is to uh be kind to yourself, allow grace for yourself. This is a huge bucket of suck, and it hurts. And people don't. My experience of working in the emergency room and in ICU, people don't just get up out of ICU and walk out of the hospital. There's a progression, and there's good days and bad days. So um give yourself grace. And then the last little thing, uh, it's not little, but forgiveness is a process, it is not a switch, and um, it will take time. And you have, in my opinion, uh how do I forgive something I don't know that I have to forgive? That's my and and how can God heal me if I don't confess my sins to him? So if I don't confess and go, hey God, I did X, Y, Z, and I need forgiveness for that, and I need healing for it. How can He how can He forgive and how can He heal that? So for us as mere human beings, it's a process. And again, I would highly recommend that you give yourself a lot of grace through this journey. Just remember it's a one step at a time, sometimes two steps forward, three steps back. And if at all possible, use the past as a catalyst for your own healing, to say, uh, you know what? I didn't like that. And so, what do I need to do for me to ensure that my boundaries are healthy because so that I can recognize when something like this is going on. And again, you know, betrayal is a hidden thing, so you don't know what's going on until you know what's going on, until you find something. So we're blindsided most of the time. But remember, it's just it's a process. This whole journey is a process, and it's hard. It is hard. It is a big old bucket of suck. I encourage you to get connected with a good, good counselor, a good therapist, a good coach, someone who's walked this journey, someone who knows about it, who's trained, specifically trained in betrayal trauma and get with a group. You are not alone. You don't have to walk this journey alone. The my groups are some of the best. I have long, long friends now, longtime friends, because of these groups. I hate that we've all had to go through it, but oh my gosh, I am so glad that I've got to meet and know these fabulous women who are walking a similar path as me. Any last words, John?

Pain Avoidance And Closing Invitation

SPEAKER_00 1:04:48

Yeah, um it's gonna be painful because and I'll just speak from my journey, I avoided pain for a very long time, and so there's a whole lot to of catch up to work through. And so um, and what I one of the things I've learned in this recovery side of things is it you still can't defer the pain, um, you still gotta work through it. And it's kind of like tax-deferred investing. It grows, but it's a lot more painful to take it out when you have to pay the full tax on it. So just um That's a great analogy. Yeah, and it's I mean, it I wish some of the things that I knew in my head would translate further, deeper into my heart faster um and come out through my actions, but I'm thick headed, thick hearted. And um I'm pounding away at it. So it's a slow process, sadly.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

Mm-hmm. Yep. For some. And I wonder if the older a person is and the longer they've been in those ruts and in those habits. You know, you've d you develop those habits. This would be a discussion. This is something we can. I have one um thing, one episode that I don't have a title to, so maybe this is something we can talk about in the future. Is it harder for guys your age to break the cycle than it is for say, had you done this at 20 or 23?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:49

Yeah, I would imagine so.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:51

Well, make a note. Let's let's discuss this as a talk amongst yourselves. That's right. Well, we can discuss it on another episode. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:59

And why that is and how to um like can we somehow it's just like getting healthy after a long time of not being healthy.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:11

It just well, don't give it all away. No, people are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

And a lot more focus and discipline than it would have.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

Oh my gosh, we're way over time.

unknown 1:07:21

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

And this stuff's hard, right? This stuff's hard, y'all. I my prayer every every episode that we do is that you will take you will find a nugget in our um raw and real conversations that we have in in our journey where we just effed it up. We just effed up six steps to in our, not just did, we in our journey over our 37 years. Because this is not something that just happened to us XYZ. I found out um years back with my the big D-Day, but I had known for a long time that um there was a problem there. So just um there is hope, y'all. There is help. I pray that you will work your self-care journey, that you will work your recovery journey, that you will find good people to connect with. There are wonderful groups. We have um two groups that we associate with, and they're on our website at hurtmeetshealer.com. Um, I just I encourage you to get involved, both guys and gals. There's there's so many um helpful places out there that will love you, that will surround you, that will not beat you up for your hurting, for your betrayal, for they will come alongside you and really desire to help you heal. So I hope that you find that. And um any any last word, John? They can't see your head shaking.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

No, hear the rocks rattle.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:25

Right. All right, y'all. Well, thank you for joining us on this episode. I really hope that it has been beneficial to uh hear our journey on uh what not to do. And maybe we can start beginning to break the cycle a little more effectively.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:42

I mean, looking at the list, we're it's a slow, slow grind. We're we're making progress in some of those areas.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:48

Remember, it's not set in stone that you have to do it this way, right? Or it's not correct. So, anywho, y'all, thank you so much, and until next time, God bless. Thank you for taking the time to listen today. Remember, you are more than what happened to you. We'd be honored to come alongside and guide you on your healing journey. Connect with us at www.hurtmeetshealer.com. Until next time. God bless.