The Empathy Gap

If you’ve ever heard “I’m sorry” and still felt completely alone, you already know the difference between words and empathy. We sit down as a couple living in the fallout of sexual addiction and infidelity and tell the truth about the empathy gap: why it’s so hard, why it matters, and why “saying the right thing” can still miss the point by a mile.

We get specific about betrayal trauma and what empathy actually requires: attunement to terror, grief, shattered safety, self-doubt, and ongoing triggers without defensiveness, minimization, or justification. We also talk about how shame can hijack the conversation, drive denial, and keep someone stuck riding life with “flat tires” while insisting everything is fine. John shares what he’s working on, including the difference between owning the impact of his actions and trying to own Kim’s feelings, and how that distinction can reduce shame and open a path toward real change.

You’ll also hear our strongest practical takeaway for rebuilding trust after infidelity: consistent, provable behavior over time. We point listeners toward trauma-informed support, including CSAT counseling, APSATS-informed resources, and recovery groups, and we name why betrayed partners shouldn’t have to coach empathy into their spouse.

If this resonates, subscribe, share this with someone who needs hope, and leave a review so more couples looking for infidelity recovery and betrayal trauma healing can find us.

Thank you for listening! For more information about us and the services we offer, visit www.hurtmeetshealer.com.

Intro & Outro music written, performed, and produced by Kim Capps.

This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or professional advice. The views expressed by the Host or any Guest(s) are strictly their own and in no way constitute legal, medical, or professional advice.
Copyright ©️ 2026, Hurt Meets Healer, LLC. All rights reserved.

Transcript

Welcome And Why We’re Here

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hi, and welcome to the Hurt Meet Taylor Podcast. I'm Kim Caps, your host and president of Hurt Meet Taylor LLC, a business tree, business plus ministry that was created to help individuals and couples for walking through the devastating impact of sexual addiction and infidelity. Thanks for joining me today. Hey y'all, welcome back to the Hurt Me Taylor Podcast. We are continuing on. Last time we talked about finding purpose in the pain. What if I put my hands down? And um please bear with me. I guess and John 2. He is back as he coughs out there over there. Sorry. Good times. And so we got a little bit of a uh my voice isn't 100%, but oh my goodness, it's 100% better than it was three days ago, four days

Why Empathy Feels So Hard

SPEAKER_01 1:12

ago. Um, so today uh we are going to attempt, and I really use the word attempt to talk about empathy. Um this is a a hard, uh difficult topic for us because I suck at it. Yeah. No pushback from me on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

It is not a strong suit for me. It is definitely an area that I have a lot of growth left.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh you don't like surprises. So I don't know if I should ask any questions that are not in the show notes, but the show notes are just what they are notes.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Because we are um, I'll reiterate what the purpose, why I started this podcast, was to bring hope that we can heal, that I can heal, that John can heal, and that John and Kim as a couple can heal. I don't know, I don't know about that last one. I do believe that we each individually can heal. Now we have to do our own work.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

And um I don't know what in the world you have been working on these past you're coming up, you're getting very close to a decade of this. And um yeah. I don't know when you got really serious about it, but uh I don't even know if it matters, to be quite honest with you. But this whole path to empathy, if that's what I end up titling this, I'm not sure yet. Uh it's elusive to you, sir. Matter of fact, even hidden or uh in the dark, because it is not it's just not your wheelhouse. I don't I I don't know if you were not ever shown empathy in your life. You have, I take that. I can say you definitely have because I've shown you empathy. I've seen others, I don't know. I wonder if you were shown more pity in your life than real true empathy.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Yeah, that's likely. If anything, like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Interesting question. But something to think about.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

It was not a uh the touchy-feely side of emotions were not really too too present in my experience. But it wasn't that they didn't exist, but that wasn't the uh I didn't come out of childhood with that as the memory.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

But it seemed like to me that in adulthood maybe you're just good at faking it, but it seemed like you that's what you wanted. Or maybe it was you wanted to do all the talking and not and do pretending like, oh yeah, I'm in tune with my feelings and fake it, if you will, and not really get down to the brass tacks and do internal work.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Some feelings I'm in tune with, and others were uh a mystery, just not ever explored.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Did you say that you're in tune to the whole red side of the feelings, Will? The red boxes. If that's anger, yeah, um resentment, bitterness, yeah, all that.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Yeah, I'm I'm well versed in those, um for sure. Yeah, and why what um and and I do think that that is a barrier to empathy. Um you know some fo some smart folks say that shame and empathy can't exist at the same time. Yeah. And so I I think you know, anger and bitterness and resentment and you know, I think those are all right there in the shame category. Interesting. I don't know where shame shows up if it even does on the feelings wheel.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Um Ashamed does. But so which is different, I think, than shame.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah. Ashamed is, you know, a a natural,

Shame And Spiritual Strongholds

SPEAKER_00 6:30

healthy response, but shame is definitely not healthy.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

I think, and this is just me, I think shame is a spirit. I think it's demonic, and I think it's a spirit. And until that is broken off of you, you're gonna have that. Just like um well, there's good one, the the not feeling enough, the need for approval, the fear of rejection. Fear. Fear is a spirit, right? Um, it's and you know, you do that all your life, you invite that. Guess what? That spirit doesn't want to leave you.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Yeah, those are strongholds that have to be broken. Right. And that takes intentionality and recognition.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

So how do you recognize it? How do you become intentional? Um, I'm gonna specifically ask to you what um specifically are you doing well, recognition uh you know, is the key in anything.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

If you don't know where you are, you'll know you don't know how to get to where you you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Don't be using my words. You gotta come up with your words.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

But that's I mean, that's just the basics, right? Is recognizing where you are and we've talked about that. I um battle that at times because you know, certain there are certain aspects of my character that I don't want to acknowledge as being broken or twisted or or uh you know messed up. And so um I can I can turn on denial um pretty easily if I let myself.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

And so would you ride a bike with flat tires and just ignore that the tires are flat? No, not at all. It's it's hard, right? It's hard to ride a bike with flat tires. So um why are you riding life, the bike of life with flat tires? What what's helpful about not acknowledging that? Just because you don't want to doesn't mean and you turn a blind eye doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Right, and I recognize that, and and that's what I battle against, but I know that it's a tendency um that because I don't want at times to own that broken part of me.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

That's how you get healed.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Right. Right. I I get that.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

If we never went to the doctor on your foot or your exploding side, um just put some dirt on it. Is that what you tear your emotional self?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Uh some I I have for a long time. Put some dirt on it. But recognizing hear me well here. Recognizing that I struggle with it doesn't mean that I'm not w working on it or or defeating that struggle. Are you going to battle? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Are you even battle ready?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

You weren't a few minutes ago.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

I I don't know the answer to that, but um These are all battles.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

We have to fight these battles. Right. So you don't know if you're battle ready.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

So I I mean, some moments an honest answer. In some moments, I'm not. In other moments, I'm very well prepared. And that's just part of the journey for me, is I mean, and I recognize this is an area of weakness because I allowed it to be an area of weakness all of my life. And so I know it's weak. And so I know it's a struggle. That doesn't mean that I'm not struggling and growing and intentionally working on those areas of my life, owning that broken part of me. I don't like talking about it. I don't like, I mean, I just don't. But at the same time, why?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

I know, well, because it it because it actually reveals what I already know, what God already knows. It actually reveals you you actually come to understand that, oh my gosh, I have no empathy. I don't even know how to get there, I don't even know what it looks like. And my wheels are flat. Ah. We all know this. You're the one that chooses to put your head in the sand. Which then would get guess what? That's you get to be broken. Keep you get to remain where you are.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

And that's by your own choice.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Right. And that's why I battle.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

I'm gonna Yeah, we can get into these word definition things all day long.

Denial And The Flat Tires Metaphor

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Maybe you do battle. I don't know. Because thank the Lord, I'm not inside your head with the monkeys that are in there. They'd kick my butt. No, I'd look at them and go, oh my gosh, I gotta get out of here.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

It's a scary place at times.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Yeah. No kidding. No kidding. So, how in the world are you going to get empathy if you can get it? If is it attainable? I think so. Because I don't know a day in my life that I've not been empathetic. Now, there are times I don't want to be. And there are times that I pity people. I pity you a lot, but I also have empathy. Especially for your I don't have empathy for your adult self. You have been a real bouto hole. And yeah. But for your child, I have deep empathy for little John. And I would really like to to do some damage if he wasn't already dead to the person who inflicted that on you. And here's the other thing is I know of an instance with with your mom that she didn't inflict anything on you. You took it, it seems like a certain way, and that has uh yet to be healed, I

What Empathy Looks Like In Betrayal

SPEAKER_01 13:40

think. So, how the heck do you get there? Because empathy isn't just feeling sorry, empathy is not pity, it's not saying the right words, which by the way, you're good at saying the right words. No, are you? Sometimes. If you really want something, you know how to manipulate. You're a great salesman. I'll put it that way. You could be a politician. That's how um boy, there's a word here I really want to say, but I'm not going to. That's how I see you. And I I heard you on a conversation with a client the other day, and I'm like, oh my Lord. Wow, snake oil. Hello. All right, I gotta get out of here. Um, just some of the things you say when you're trying to sell something is fascinating. So saying the right words, it's not empathy, it's putting yourself in the other person's shoes and actually feeling what they feel or getting as close to that as you can. That you used the word not long ago, attuning. That's the process of attuning to what I'm going through as your spouse. And I have not felt that nor received it. Especially without I'll give you the I'll I'll give you what I wrote down here. Empathy here is not just feeling sorry or saying the right words. It is the active process of attuning to your partner's inner experience, the terror, the grief, shattered safety, self-doubt, and ongoing triggers without defensiveness, without minimization, without justification, or shifting the focus back onto your own shame or discomfort. That's what I mean when I talk empathy. And I believe if done, if you can do these, figure out how to get to that to empathy, and you're able to consistently do it, it will help your betrayed spouse heal. And it'll, you know what, it'll help you heal. Because you ought to be healing in the process of figuring out what empathy is. Right. And just this little um caution light for you, John, that requires talking about past things. You know, P-A-S-T. Those things that happened back there that you don't want to talk about because you don't want to go there for whatever reason, which sends me the message that you don't want to be healed. How do you heal something that really did happen, but you're denying that it happened? How do you ride a bike with flat tires and believe that the tires are full of air? You can answer. You can talk if you can talk. Are you clipped?

unknown 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

You haven't a minute?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

I'm struggling.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

He's not crying, he's nice. I can pinch him, maybe I can't even reach him. Um yeah, we got bad allergies. Bye-bye. We're having all sorts of kinds of trouble. Well, good. There you go. Maybe you're not supposed to talk on this one. Oh my gosh. Oh

Consistent Behavior Builds Safety

SPEAKER_01 18:00

my lord. And here's what what I need. I've said it, I I ugh until I'm blue in the face. Consistent, provable behavior over time. My mind, I I would say I have a, I could have an overthinking mind. And I don't need constant reassurance. I don't need, I'm working on it. I don't need, yeah, I'm doing this. I don't need that. I need consistent behavior so my mind can calm. So that I'm not always expecting the worst from you, which is honestly where I am. I expect you to lie. And when you do, there you go. Prove my point. I expect you to walk away from conversations, and when you do, well, there you go. You're meeting all my expectations. A plus plus, John. A plus plus. Are you able to talk? That's I'd like

John’s Path: Impact Without Shame

SPEAKER_01 19:15

barely. I'd like to know your path to empathy. Do you have one?

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Well, I I mean what I'm working toward is attuning to your feelings, not owning your feelings. I own the impact of my actions and how they affect you. And so I try to connect to what you might be feeling. That's my understanding of the path to empathy. Not that I'm responsible for your feelings. I am responsible for my actions that that imp that have impacted you, that drive some of those feelings. And so I'm really working hard to keep that separate and not because what happens in me when I try to own your feelings is that's when shame comes. But when I can just own that what I'm observing and what you're experiencing is the impact of my actions, and I'm responsible for my actions. I'm responsible for that impact, but you're responsible for the feelings. Correct. And so that's been a hard journey for me because I so want to fix things that I have found myself on the wrong side of that equation, trying to own the feelings, and that takes me to shame, and that's not helpful. It doesn't help you at all. And so it doesn't help us, and it doesn't help me either, because I wind up in shame, and there's no growth in shame. Right?

SPEAKER_01 21:10

So do you um are you taking responsibility for your feelings? Do you even recognize your feelings? We're each responsible for our own thoughts and feelings. Right. Right now, we can make determinations based on experience with someone that we have a history, we have a long history, you and I. And there is um just a ton of hurt in that history. There's experiences, and so when um when I see something show up that is all too familiar of I'll just say past John, previous John, prior John, all the P's, P John. Uh yeah, there's feelings of fear, frustration, disappointment, blah, blah, blah. Are you aware of your own feelings?

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Some of the time. Do you do you I'm I'm getting better about identifying my feelings, but are you honest with yourself?

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Oh, pause. I appreciate you taking the time to think about it. I really do.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

I think I am. I mean, I really do.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Um I think I am. I think I'm honest with myself. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

I I think I have learned to identify my feelings and own my feelings and be honest about them. Really? With myself. I'm not particularly transparent about them all the time. Um, I don't share a lot of my feelings.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

True.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Well, not with me anyway.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Well, or with anybody because I how not even your counselor? Yeah. I I do share my feelings with my counselor.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

And I even share my feelings in my group, but I don't.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Wow, that means you're talking about me.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

No, that means I'm talking about my feelings.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Uh-huh. Well, typically, yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

So if I am learning to be more comfortable in as as I learn what my feelings are doing inside of me and how to identify them, um I'm getting more comfortable talking about them. But it's still a very scary place. Uh and so I'm still working on that. I'm still working through that.

Counseling And Groups That Help

SPEAKER_01 24:25

All right. Well, my recommendation um for anyone out there struggling with empathy, um, figuring out what it is. Because I yeah, we we struggle here. I I know what empathy is. I feel it, I have it, I can name my emotions and my feelings. And um I think it requires, and here's why I can do this is because I have worked with a CSAT with a betrayal trauma-informed counselor for nearly six years now. Um that has been so beneficial. I've been in groups uh of like-minded women who have who have been betrayed, and that I think is required. I for the guys, for the betrayer, and I use guys here because I'm a girl and my betrayer is a dude. And so that that's where I'm coming from. I'm coming from the position of a wife, betrayed by her husband. Um I I think it requires professional help. If if your husband does not show empathy, has no inkling of what that is, cannot show up for you, cannot listen to your pain. I highly recommend finding a trauma-informed counselor, a CSAT, a um an appsats counselor, someone who has the knowledge that can guide y'all through this. That's I believe that's what it will require. If you want it to be faster than what uh John and I are pacing ourselves at is to be on like the 30-year plan, it seems like. I mean, safety means there's honesty and and empathy. You can't even get to safety without that. How do you how do you even begin recovery? And maybe that's why we are where we are. It's because you're just now finding whatever empathy is to you. What the heck have you been doing all these years? Holy balls. Ay, ay, ay. Someone help me. I don't know. Do you know? Supposedly you stopped your addiction, so it wasn't like you had to get stop that.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

What have you been doing?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

I've been trying to learn about who I am and how to function as a as a real boy.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Really? You haven't just been complaining and griping and whang, wham, whang your way through. I haven't got like, I mean, that's that's been your uh way. That's been your life story. Victim, victim, victim, victim, victim. I'm curious, John, if you were to really get honest and be honest. You won't, but okay. So this is not gonna be a long one, thank the Lord, because we're both struggling today. But I um, you know, there's a couple things I could throw out there at y'all to do. Um I sit on as a disappointed wife, because I do have a spouse that doesn't have empathy. And you confess that, by the way. I'm not saying something out of my butt. You confessed you don't have it.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Yeah, it's something that I struggle with still.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

So, um, yeah. I uh I wish I could give you, do A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and boom, you'll have empathy. I think it I think it is a lot of things. I think it's putting your hands down, guys. Yeah, I'm talking to the guys. I think it's putting your hands down. Maybe practicing a little bit of humility and humbleness. What if? What if you don't have to be defensive? What if? I think you don't. I mean, if you're still showing up like that, there is something wrong after all these years, and you've been with professional people, and you're still showing up with a defensive posture, something's not working. Something's not landing. What you gotta figure out what that is. Because you cannot get to empathy until you figure out where the broken pieces are in you. And if you're riding that dang bike with flat tires, you're you're not getting anywhere fast. And that's where we are. We're not getting anywhere fast. Not as a couple, and that saddens me. That saddens me. You have to fully own guys what you did. Put yourself in your wife's shoes. And you can ask, ask yourself if I were in my partner's position, if I discovered lies, if I discovered my wife was lying to me, if I discover my wife had an affair, she broke our marriage vows, what how would I feel? What thoughts would race through my mind? What would I do? Put yourself in their shoes. You have to feel their pain to be able to empathize. And I highly recommend, I'll say this every every podcast if I have to, getting into a group, finding good good counseling out there. It is out there all sorts of great um places to go. And so I just highly recommend if you are lacking in empathy, find, find a specialist. Um, and if you can't afford someone like that, there's some great YouTube videos out there, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:54

And there's also um other groups that uh that you can resource. There's brave hearts groups, there's men in the battle, women in the battle. There's multiple um and and interestingly enough, a growing community out there of support and help for folks that are living through and and working on healing through this same journey that Kim and I are on. And there are uh there's a growing number of resources out there that are good quality resources that if you need help finding something like that, reach out to us. Um's done a lot of research in this area and is very knowledgeable and can guide you um and give great tips and suggestions on that. Um she's a great researcher. Uh way, way more so than me. Uh I stumble across things, but she actually goes and finds them. And uh so take advantage of that if if you need help.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yep. Yep. And guys, I mean, consistency. It takes consistent, consistent approval behavior over time. Um highly recommend professional guidance. Uh, please don't expect immediate results or even quick results. Oh my gosh. And uh for those of us as the betrayed partner, um, speaking from experience, which is oh my gosh, I fail at this all the time. You do not have to coach your spouse through these things. I believe me, it backfires. It doesn't work. I've tried, tried, tried, and tried, tried. Um, not tried. I've actually given him great, great coaching, great um words of Kim's wisdom. And uh, you know, that explosive diarrhea

Betrayed Partner Focus And Closing

SPEAKER_01 34:20

that's going around right now, that's what comes back on me. Yep. So I uh I uh turned my focus on to my healing, which is what we talked about last podcast, episode 19, of what if I put my hands down and I'm learning to find purpose in the pain, in my pain, and learning to um sit in that pain and recognize oh my gosh, okay, I can heal through this. So there you go. That's all I got for you on this time. Anything else, John?

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Just recognize that it's a it this is a hard journey if you um and there's something about the impact of uh either sex addiction, porn addiction, just the exposure to the to that world that really uh impairs the emotional side of develop growth and development for us guys. So recognize that it's gonna be work. It's it's like um beginning an exercise program when you're grossly out of shape. And it and the worst part is uh at least in that scenario, you can actually see, you could see the the scale move, you can see your clothes get smaller or looser or whatever. In this scenario, um it is super hard to see because the person that it matters to is seeing it through their eyes, and I can think I'm doing a great job with empathy and still suck at it. And that's challenging. So be encouraged that it's worth the effort. Um and I'll I'll say that from the brief moments of empathy that I do experience. They are brief and they're not great, but it happens periodically, and what I'm working on hard hardly working hard on is having that to be the case more consistently, more often. So, and that's that's all I have to say about that.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

All right, Mr. Gump, thank you so much. Y'all, thanks for joining us this time on the Hurt Meets Healer podcast. I uh hope you continue to join us as we walk our journey out on this thing. It's rough, it's hard. Um, I think we can get through it. And uh well, you know what? Stick with us. You'll find out probably when we find out, if we make it or not. So thanks again, y'all. Until next time. God bless. Thank you for taking the time to listen today. Remember, you are more than what happened to you. We'd be honored to come alongside and guide you on your healing journey. Connect with us at www.hurtmeetshealer.com. Until next time. God bless.